Current 458 owner looking for a 360 or 430 gated manual? What should I expect?

I am a current MY 2013 458 owner and I love the car, but I miss having a manual 6 speed gear box. I love the DCT of the 458 and appreciate how fast it shifts and the performance aspects of the car, but I don't track my cars and just miss the connectivity experience of shifting manually. I am in the market for either a 360 or 430 model, or to a lessor degree, perhaps a Gallardo, but would prefer to stick with Ferrari. I have never owned a gated shifter before, but some of my previous cars have been a Ford GT, many Vipers, Shelby KR, Corvettes, etc...that all had manual gearboxes. What can I expect to experience with a gated Ferrari manual gear box. I just love the "click-click" sound that I have heard in videos, but have never been behind the wheel of one.
I am not looking to get rid of my 458...just add another car with a manual gearbox. I would love to hear some thoughts from fellow forumites. Thank you, in advance.
Treviso

 

I had the idea that the gated shifter would lead to some sort of "robotic" feel to the actual shifting from one gear to another. It looks so much like a maze that I thought the forward-sideways-forward or back-sideways-back movements would produce an odd feeling.

In fact, it's just like shifting any other car and I don't even notice the shift gate except for that distinctive and somehow satisfying click, click, click. That, and the fact that when you look at it it just screams "old school Ferrari".

So, you can expect the gated shifter itself to be transparent in use, but WAY cool in every other respect; i.e. absolutely perfect.

 

04 360 gated
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Hi Treviso,

I did this year what you're looking to do. I traded a 360 spider gate shifter for my 458 (2013). I in no way would give up the 458 but missed the 6 speed on my 360. So this year I found and added another 360 (2004 6 speed). Its a great car in the 6 speed version. Raw and feels like a muscle car to me. Very responsive with excellent handling. Not as technically advanced and unbelievably fast as the 458 but still an awesome beautiful classic Ferrari. I feel I have the best of both worlds now with the 458 and the 360 6 speed. Go for it!!

Best,
Tom

 

I love my 360 manual.......

 

I would say the only real difference other than the "click-click" is that it can be pretty notchy until warm. I usually skip 2nd until warm. When it's really warm, it's as slick as any. Another note: I don't know about 360s, but 430s have small flywheels and when you let off the gas, the revs drop very fast. So, when starting out, you have to give it more gas than you are perhaps used to and if you are doing leisurely upshifts, a little blip of the throttle before letting the clutch out will smooth things out a bit. I learned to not quite let off the throttle all the way. With practice, you can operate the throttle yourself much like the computer would but it is vastly more fun. I've had my 430 from new and it now has 24K on it. The clutch is original and just fine. Unlike paddle cars, you can't get readouts on how much is left.

Dave

 

A true enthusiast at heart!
Love it. Gluck, I'd love to feel a gated shifter

 

I traded my 13 458 this year for a 430 spider 6 spd manual. Much happier I like old school with gauges....

 

Spider ,add CS " enhancements " and .... true enthusiasm !

Gear lever position and lever throw is extremely good in the 360 with transition through upshifts and downshifts in spirited driving very natural. The connection with a manual 6 speed Vs F-1 is visceral ...while there is no argument on the technological advantages of current F-1 style transmissions, I find that the " shifting experience " in a Ferrari enhances the driving experience.

I can only imagine a 458 with a manual !

http://youtu.be/bX2Cg6sTCX0
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Less than 1/4 of all 360's ever sold (and even less F430's) had a H-Gate so they are getting rare. I predict in the future they will command a much high premium over flappy paddle auto's as die hard H-gaters keep hold of them for the pure enjoyment factor. Especially as sub $10k hot hatches get paddles as standard and the novelty of using them starts to wear thin.

I understand the latest DCT's and appreciate they are faster shifting but I genuinely derive a lot more satisfaction, enjoyment and involvement from a H-gated manual shifter vs the flappy paddles or full automatics with perfect automatic rev matching 'blips' on downshifts. Much in the same way that I prefer to drive myself than be a passenger.

Evolution meant inevitably H-gates where always going to be doomed. If Google has anything to do with it we'll all be chauffeur driven around by them (and manual driving will be eventually "phased out") for GPS based auto pilots. I am confident eventually you'll then be able to be driven around your track by your favorite virtualized F1 drivers 'personality' programmed into your satnav dashboard [for a cost]. Just in the same way you select different voices for your SatNav today. Sit back and enjoy the virtualized drive... No I'm really not joking!

Eventually young people won't even bother to learn to drive themselves anymore and the law will be changed to make it illegal to manually drive in major towns, etc. Ofcourse it will be safer, yes lives will be saved, yes energy efficiency will be higher and yes you'll need no per-requisites to buy a car (no license required) - just buy a car and let the satnav take you where you want to go (track or otherwise).

I'm not actually a DCT or automatic hater, I just find auto's leave me a little colder and I need to be driving a LOT faster to feel involved...

Here's my H-gater...
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....well put !

 

I wouldn't hesitate to get a manual 430. Its more involving to drive and as Trev says you are in control. If you are a real driver then there is nothing better than braking up to a roundabout and manually going down through the gears .....or the feeling of manually changing up as you power through the gears


I will now get a load of arguments from the F1 flappy paddle boys .... but here goes ...... all the F1 fans will bang on about how fast the flappy paddle shift is and how they would never go back to a gear stick etc ............next post they are debating their clutch life or loads of problems with F1 error codes/intermittent gear shifts/warning lights/etc/etc or asking how much a new clutch/actuator/pump/etc will cost, or saying you cant use launch control as three starts will knacker the clutch.

Have a look through all the posts and you will struggle to find anyone having big problems with a stick shift. I have done loads of racing starts with my 430 and left nice black tyre marks !!!! and my clutch is still working.

Also as these cars get older I am sure the F1 problems will get worse and more expensive, and this will leave the stick shift boy with a car that is more fun, less hassle, cheaper, and worth more. In the Uk every dealer I have ever been to has asked me if they can sell my car as its a manual and they say they can shift them ........ look at the adds in the UK and all the 430's that have been hanging around for a long time are all F1

Yes I have driven several flappy paddle cars and if I was racing then I would have F1 as it would do a quicker lap ....... but the drive home will always have a gear stick

Simon

 

The only way you can take my gated shifter away is by prying it from my cold, dead fingers!

GPS cars are a joke... they can and will be hacked... it's called a louder gps signal and a laser pulse to the camera at 80 mph. Not good!

 

Great to see this. The world is funny...guys with 458s wanting 360s with carbon dated transmissions. All I can say is that I absolutely love my 3 pedal 360. I haven't owned many cars but the sweet bell ring between each shift, the momentary near silence as the revs drop followed by the explosion of sound of the next gear really is something approaching a transcendent experience. F1 transmissions do it too fast. Sometimes it really is more human to do things just a little slower than technically possible. You don't shotgun a fine Scotch do you?

 

I also love my 3 pedal.....but sometimes in fast curving drives it a little difficult getting to the shifter as I am sliding around a corner....sometimes makes me wish I had a paddle next to my fingers...but then I hit a small straight and once again I am glad I have a gated shift...just trade off 's like the rest of life I guess...I'll keep my 3 pedal!

 

wiser words have never been spoken. the satisfying clank is one of the most joyous aspects when i drive my car. i LOVE the clanks.

To the original poster, this is so refreshing and great to hear. Maybe the manual tranny isn't dead quite yet.

 

I had the 430 with the manual, loved it. Love my 458 as well.

Two notes: the 430 flywheel is very,very light. Revs rise and fall fast, it's not unusual to need a blip with up shifts, especially 3-4 and 4-5. Getting a good 3-2 heel and toe downshift requires PERFECT timing of your blip, when you get it right, it is very satisfying.

Second note, the clicks are actually the shifter shaft hitting the gates, as such, they are misses. If you are very accurate with shifter placement, you can shift it perfectly silently.

Also, make sure you have the hill engineering reverse bushing installed (do a search here) and, in an older car, you might even want to have a good mechanic fine tune the linkage adjustment. This requires the rear diffuser to be off, some adjustments to the cable linkages, and trial and error to get perfect. I had mine done and it made that last 5% of difference.

Cheers,

Ron

 

You make a good point. My relatively high-mileage, manual 360 is now 14 years old and the transmission components, especially the syncros, are getting a bit long in the tooth. Knowing something about how these components work, I try to give them a break when it's appropriate.

When cold, second gear is sometimes just fine, but sometimes it's a bit reluctant, so I either double clutch or go directly to third gear until things warm up.

When I'm feeling frisky, I shift rapidly, but when just cruising around I "ease" the car into the next gear with the thought that giving the syncros a tiny bit of extra time to do it's job will be good for them in the long run while I wait for an Email from Ferrari offering transmission replacements for $99.95.

I would hate to think that some F-1 computer would "speed shift" my aged transmission each and every time no matter the temperature, no matter the age, no matter my mood.

 

You can drive an F1 in exactly the same way, shift 1-3 until warm if you wish and be sympathetic to the tranny depending on temperature and your mood - it is an automated manual so treat it with the same respect!

I have had both a 430 manual coupe and now a 16M. The 430 manual had to be my first F car as I just wanted that chrome gate and it was great. It's not the best manual gearbox ever but it is a Ferrari so what's not to like. However the SF2 F1 in the 16M is simply in another league, drive it always as a manual and you are in complete control of everything from slow and imperceptible to dazzling fast brutal changes, non sequential banzai if you feel like it to smooth as silk. DCT in comparison is just a disappointment, it is so boring and leaves me cold, the M3 has to go and soon!

 

Your wasting your time Russell.....We have to accept that the F1 system is an unreliable POS that takes all of the fun out of driving Anything else is just internet hearsay......usually from people who haven't driven one but read plenty on here

The fact that it isn't an auto and doesn't hammer the gears in unless you ask it to by completly abusing it i.e cold 7k plus, wide open throttle (no different from a manual). The fact that I was out for a spin in mine yesterday and the sport changes (a mere 150ms not SF2) just blow me and my passengers away every time. The fact that the respected techs on here say they replace more synchro's in manual cars when they are outnumbered by F1's 2:1 etc...it's all nonsense.

The big mistake Ferrari made with F1 is that they completely underestimated the level of understanding needed to set-up these systems properly . When they are optimised they are fabulous, when they aren't set-up by a competent tech they 'can' be trouble.
For me it's not the system it's the standard of maintenance although it is more a 360 issue than a 430 one.
I've only ever driven DCTs in VW/Audi group cars so cannot extrapolate to a 458 but I'd agree with Russell that the F1 system is a far rawer system than DCT and in a sports car that is a potentially a good thing.

 

Well of course we all have our preferences, I will always have a manual car if I can. At the moment that's a JCW mini which is just a hoot but the F1 is no less rewarding as a challenge to use either around town, on the open road or on the race track and takes as much effort and concentration to drive properly.
However, it is worth remembering that the F1 in the 430 is actually the same gearbox as the manual car, the F1 change was optimized over 15+ years by Ferrari drawing heavily on their racing engineering and is a product unique to Ferrari - the DCT in the 458 by contrast is a bought in unit and is shared by the SLS Merc! They are/were designed for a different purpose and dare I say a different clientele.

 

I was not aware that you could program the F-1 transmission to skip gears. I thought in order to get from first to third, you had to engage second on the way. How do you skip second?

I was also aware that the transmission could perform really fast shifts with the option (when you're really flogging it) to perform ultra fast shifts. But I did not know that you could slow the normally fast shift when the transmission is cold. How do you make the F-1 shift slowly?

 

Robert, You and I discussed the gated manual before you ordered your Italia. I'm glad that you're anxious to get another stick, which would be your first manual Ferrrari. Good luck in the hunt. I'm always happy to discuss it further with you. Merry Christmas, and a very happy and healthy 2014! Fred

 

F1 gearbox is a non sequential box unlike DCT. To skip a gear you simply pull twice (or more) on the paddle in quick succession. This might be to effect an overtake when you spot a gap in the traffic to drop down the gearbox or indeed accelerating up an on ramp and then jumping up a couple of gears for example. This is further affected with Scud/16M where you can also choose (or not) to engage SF2 with your inputs and requirements both up and down the box. With regards to speed of change the F1 reacts to revs and throttle application to alter the speed of shift, not to mention the effect your right foot can have to feather a change at lower speeds. Practice makes perfect!

 

Russell, I'd absolutely love this to be the case but sadly having investigated and followed the Magneti Marelli's electrohydraulic manual transmission for many years, the truth is it really wasn't actually a developed specifically for Ferrari or honed over many years. It was developed around the mid 90's on very old cheap embedded microcontrollers (with Motorola 68k processor architecture, itself dating back to the 70's!).

Alfa also used the exact same system on many of their cars (their marketing name was Selespeed, Ferrari used F1 to make it somehow sound relevant to their customers). In fact it was originally developed independently by their (Magneti Marelli's) engineers whom spoon fed different versions of the software to multiple manufacturers at the same time. It was not unique to Ferrari, others like Audi, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Maserati and even some Chinese manufacturers like Chery Automobile Co. Ltd use the same system (just called different things to appeal to their brand).

Shift speed is one of many attributes used as a marketing differentiator, for less performance orientated customers fuel efficiency was quoted as being about 5% better (people are lazy shifters and auto's do a better job of improving efficiency!). Technically it was mostly just different settings/configuration with only small code changes, a bit like the difference between CS TCU and 360 one. Exactly the same hardware, just different maps and a little bit of tweaking to the code...

The only thing they really did on the 360 was fix the absolutely terrible clutch life problems of the first versions and allow some more configuration to be able to set point of slip from the Ferrari SDx computers.