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Textron/Cessna buying Beechcraft

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Jeff Kennedy, Dec 21, 2013.

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  1. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #1 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 21, 2013
    Announced in the press yesterday s that Textron is buying Beechcraft for 1.4B. This should be an interesting integration since Beechcraft no longer makes any jets and Cessna long ago killed their competitors to the King Air. Another area to watch is what happens with the Beechcraft service centers as Cessna has a good network of their own.

    Jeff
     
  2. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #2 Tcar, Dec 22, 2013
    NO!!!!!!!!!

    Walter and Olive Ann will turn over in their graves...
     
  3. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #3 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 23, 2013
    They may but what did they do when Goldman Sachs did the ill advised takeover that led to the current situation? For that they have tried to return from the grave.

    Cessna is likely a whole lot better than investment bankers trying to run the company.

    Jeff
     
  4. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #4 Tcar, Dec 23, 2013
    I know... just afraid they'll discontinue my favorites.


    I've just had this heirarchy from childhood

    Beechcraft = Cadillac

    Cessna = Chevy Nova

    Piper = Somewhere below that.

    (I know, I was a kid.)


    I've wanted a Bonanza since I was 7; first model I built, first flying model plane, uncle had one, my first plane ride, etc. etc..
     
  5. steve02370

    steve02370 Karting

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    #5 steve02370, Dec 23, 2013
    You forgot Mooney = Ferrari of Single Engine :)
     
  6. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 jcurry, Dec 23, 2013
    Walter and Clyde did work together, so now they are full circle.

    The Travel Air Manufacturing Company was an aircraft manufacturer established in Wichita, Kansas in the United States in January 1925 by Clyde Cessna, Walter Beech, and Lloyd Stearman.
     
  7. kevfla

    kevfla Formula 3

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    gone 4 good
    #7 kevfla, Dec 23, 2013
    Mooney maybe wasn't around when TCar was a kid.

    Or maybe not! I don't know how old TCar is, but Mooney was founded in 1929.

    But +1 on the analogy. Definitely a pilot's plane!
     
  8. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #8 Tcar, Dec 23, 2013
    It was around, and I knew of the Mooney Mite...

    And I read about the M20 in "FLYING" mag, but I didn't think they would be around, I guess.
    I was probably in my teens before I actually saw one in NM.
     
  9. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #9 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 23, 2013
    Beech certainly has a great history through the 1960s. Problem is that they really lost how to create new aircraft after the King Air which was a re-engine Queen Air.

    The Beechjet was originally the Mitsubishi Diamond.

    Hawker was acquired by Beech/Raytheon.

    The "Beech" developed aircraft were disasters. Starship, Premier and Horizon/4000. So interminably late through development that it made Learjet's developments look on time. Late also means absolute money pits for development costs. And in the end they did not accomplish their goals of being markedly better than their market competition.

    Cessna is an interesting comparison from the mid 1980s onward. As far as I was concerned Cessna interiors were iterations of 310s. Cheap 310s were in the single engines and "nice" 310s were in the early Citations. This changed when Russ Meyer brought in Cindy Halsey to take over design. She turned around the look of the Citation interiors from being sub-par and definitely nothing more than low cost driven to great work. Simultaneously Cessna realized how to continually expand the Citation model range which kept interest in buying new up (a prime failing of the Lear 35 - why buy new when 5 year old is no different except for warranty). Cessna as also holding development schedules and meeting their performance projections. This was something that Beech/Raytheon couldn't do under penalty of death.

    It will be interesting to watch the decisions on which Beech products are kept. KingAir is an easy one - tons of military sales along with "regular" sales. The twin pistons may be safe since Cessna killed theirs long ago. The Bonanza - lots of history but here Cessna has some of their own. I keep having troubles why anyone buys a new single at current pricing when there are so many used alternatives at a fraction of the price or a used turbo prop twin can be bought for the same amount; even PC-12 and Meridens for those that only want to feed one engine.

    As Beech came out of BK there was talk of planned aircraft developments. Wonder if any of these will continue.

    Jeff
     
  10. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #10 Tcar, Dec 23, 2013
  11. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #11 Tcar, Dec 23, 2013
  12. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    #12 solofast, Dec 23, 2013
    Cessna doesn't have a retract single so there isn't any conflict with the Bonanza.

    Unfortunately, there isn't much money in the Bonanza. Beech would have killed it back in the 90's, but the Bonanza society offered to insure that there would be at least 100 units sold, and if not they would buy what it took to get production to 100 units. Fortunately for them sales have been high enough and they haven't had to buy any airplanes. Basically it's not a money making product line but for the spares sales....

    Really the only profitable product line is the King Air, and while it makes money, it isn't enough to sustain the company.
     
  13. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    #13 solofast, Dec 23, 2013
    Beech was also beset with high production costs. I was working in around 2000 on a engine that would replace the PT6 with a modern engine for the King Air. Because of the success of the Pilatus they were looking to cut the cost and improve the efficiency of the KA...

    So in the meeting the Beech guy relates what their cost was on the KA, and what they wanted to sell the new airplane for... We would have basically had to give them the engines .. FOR FREE for them to make their proposed price point..

    We told them that wasn't going to happen. While we were willing to beat the PT6 price by lot, they were still going to be way over what they wanted to sell the airplane for when you added in the price of two engines and their profit.
     
  14. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #14 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 24, 2013
    Today's Aviation International News:

    Textron Remains Silent on Anticipated Beechcraft Acquisition
    Friday’s market chatter that Textron is set to acquire Beechcraft had still drawn no official comment from either party as of press time. A December 20 report in the Financial Times citing only “people familiar with the matter” was enough to drive Textron’s share price up on Wall Street by almost 15 percent at one point to close at $37.29 by the end of the day. It subsequently fell slightly on Monday, but some close industry observers speaking to AIN on condition of anonymity remained convinced that a deal to bring together Textron subsidiary Cessna and Beechcraft could be announced before year-end. A leading figure in the charter sector with connections to both OEMs said that the deal is likely imminent and commented that it would represent a “once-in-a-generation” opportunity to make both companies more competitive. Industry analyst Brian Foley told AIN that the resulting merger would make good sense. “It’s a good fit for Textron,” he said. “Cessna already has the jet side of the market well covered. The King Air line is a twin turboprop that Cessna currently doesn’t have in its line, and it’s a real cash cow for Beechcraft. It fits nicely between the single-engine turboprop Caravan and the light jets.”
     
  15. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #15 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 24, 2013
    You part of the Nextant King Air re-engining? The announcement of that program sure set Beechcraft and PW into a public defense mode.

    Jeff
     
  16. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #16 Tcar, Dec 24, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2013
    What I was wondering is if the Bonanza might be renamed, like the Columbia planes...

    Cessna Bonanza doesn't work.... or Cessna G36...
     
  17. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    #17 solofast, Dec 24, 2013
    No, this was an RR plan to find a launch customer for a PT6 Series 1 replacement. The small KA was the biggest single buyer of PT6's at the time and Beech wanted badly to replace it. P&W was hammering them on price, when there is no competition you can charge what you want, and Pratt did...

    Beech didn't pull the trigger since they had a cost problem and didn't see how they could compete, even with less expensive engines. If you can't really compete, and are in a niche market anyway, it's not going to make much difference if the airplane costs a couple of hundred thousand more or less. You can understand that since it would have cost them money to recert the airplane and the production numbers didn't really justify it. Pratt had them over a barrel and was (and probably still is now) making a huge profit on that engine.
     
  18. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    #18 solofast, Dec 24, 2013
    One problem is that Beech owners are fiercely loyal and generally look down on Cessna's. This won't sit well with them... The name Beechcraft means a lot to them, much like BMW or Porsche means in the car world.

    Cessna would do well to just keep the Beechcraft brand and combine sales, parts distribution and engineering to the maximum extent possible. If you kill the brand you will really hurt yourself in the long run. They can cut specific product lines that duplicate Cessna products, but to my mind killing the name would be a mistake.
     
  19. Jeff Kennedy

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    #19 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 29, 2013
    Cessna/Textron and Beechcraft have announced the agreement. Interesting part of the announcement is that Cessna gets the Type Certificate for the Premier and the Hawker 4000. My thinking is that Cessna wants to ensure that no one else can acquire these and ever restart production.

    Jeff
     
  20. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

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    #20 Tcar, Dec 29, 2013
    Interesting aside...

    Walter and Olive Beech stayed in charge of Beech for decades... until they died, basically; about 50 years.


    Clyde Cessna was only head of Cessna for 4-5 years after founding the company before he threw in the towel (Great Depression).

    The Wallace brothers took over Cessna and built it into what it became; number one in the world.
     
  21. Jeff Kennedy

    Jeff Kennedy F1 Veteran
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    #21 Jeff Kennedy, Dec 29, 2013
    Did not know that.

    Is there a special story about Pawnee too? Cessna did/does have the Wallace and Pawnee divisions.

    Jeff
     
  22. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #22 jcurry, Jan 6, 2014

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