John There is a new thread on how a guy got an estimate for 5k for a clutch...I have to ask what do you think about that? Smile
John, there's no need to call a nameless, faceless person an idiot just so we can all feel better about being smarter or more cost conscious. I know many people who are not mechanically inclined, but have achieved a level of financial comfort and efficiency where it is worth it to them to pay 2x the reasonable value for a job if they are assured that it will done correctly. Custom home building is a perfect example of where this applies. For all we know, the seller of the car with the alleged $40k repair history may be lurking on this thread. As a group, let's try and tone down the self righteousness, okay?
Greg I don't know why you are harping on john? I think he is just trying to open peoples eyes. What makes you think that because you are paying more that your getting a better job? I do remember reading something on here that techs make more money working for ford or dodge than the Ferrari dealerships. Don't think that because your taking your car to the dealer that the job is being done better or right.I can tell you some real stories up hear about that.Look at the guy up hear that spent 38k and his car still doesn't run right.
Second part of my response, and I say this with all respect for your opinion cited above. Consider the counterpoint for a minute: What makes you think that you would not get a better job done for 2x the amount? Let me cite personal experience, not someone elses post. I had a beer with Ernie last night and we were talking about all kinds of cost versus value topics related to Ferraris, and comparing them to my current project, a Miata track car. Ernie and FatBillyBob know where I work and what resources I have available for my own projects if I choose to use them. Recently I installed a Harddog 4 point roll bar into the Miata. Panels, both plastic and sheet metal, need to be trimmed. Holes must be drilled into the chassis. Various small factory equipment mounting locations need to be modified or trimmed. I searched all the Miata forums to see how many hours other people were investing in this job. The shortest time I saw was 1/2 day with 2 guys on the project. The average was 1 day with 2 guys on the job. It took me 1-1/2 days, with 1/2 day of me working alone and the full day with 2 of us working for 12 hours. If I were an independent shop billing a customer for that job, how could I charge for my full hours invested? I know that the level of detail that went into my installation is equal to the effort we've put into our World Challenge or Redline Time Attack cars. My interior panels hug the contour of the roll bar perfectly. If you lift up the carpet to look at the sheet metal we cut out, the cuts are clean, tight and all dressed. If you go underneath the car to see how we bolted the backing plates, you'll see that I pressure washed the chassis before spraying the backing plates and bolts with undercoating spray. You can't see any of this by just looking inside the car. All you see is the same Harddog roll bar that appears in 100 other forum posts from 100 other owners all saying that they did it in less time that it took me. Am I an idiot because I took almost 2x the time to do the work compared to the fastest guy? If I were a shop doing this work for a customer, would I be ripping them off? This is my counterpoint. 1st hand experience, no anecdotal references. This is what Monteman meant in his original post that started this thread. Post your own first hand experience, don't repeat or paraphrase someone else's. On my previous Miata track car (I seem to build one every 6 years since the car was originally introduced in 1990), I needed a hole drilled into the race exhaust midpipe and a bung welded up to relocate the second O2 sensor. I asked another one of our guys to help me after work, traded out for a week's worth of pizza money. Any exhaust shop could have done the job for me, but this guy was a former fabricator with Fabcar, the Porsche racing team. It was the most beautifully welded exhaust bung you will ever see on a race car, but actually never to be seen to anyone but him and me. If he had to charge me real money for the job, it would have been 4x what a muffler shop would charge. Would he be ripping me off by charging me for the actual time he had invested in the job? Would I be an idiot for paying what that job was worth to him? If and when I choose to have my Miata 1.8 engine rebuilt, will people on the Miata forum call me an idiot if I decide to take my motor to Rebello or Suncoast instead of the local guy up the street who rebuilds all kinds of Japanese engines for cheap? What is the dollar versus HP argument for a Rebello or Suncoast motor when you are not really racing competitively? These are the questions that all car guys have to struggle with when they dive in deep.
Here's my personal experience... I had the standard cylinder #2 go out at 32k after buying the car at 25K, bad valves and washed liner as a result of bad stock header. After a bottom-end refresh (cyl 2 liner and piston matched to opposing piston weight #6 I believe) I had new heads fully rebuilt by "S+R Exotics" in Indiana and Fabspeed headers installed amongst other new cool stuff. My independent shop in SF did all the work except the heads. My car still runs like a champ at 48k miles, but it does consume oil as the older rings/liners that didn't get replaced are now worn. I do drive my car quickly and definitely don't feel like it's down on power at all, but adding oil is somewhat annoying and I feel that at the next major in 3 years I'll probably do a full engine rebuild with better liners, pistons, rings, etc. The car is very fast, fast enough to terrify any inexperienced passenger!! Way way under $20k for the major, top end rebuild, and bottom end refresh, not including header install/purchase. My point is that a Ferrari dealership or an indy with a blank check presented to him might just say, "F it, even though it's just cyl #2 rebuild the whole damn thing so it's as good as new and we don't have to do it again." It's also not super easy to locate just one or two liners or pistons, most are sold as sets so a lot of digging had to be done to find parts for my car. I didn't have the funds at the time to say "F it", so I did the next best thing which was to fix cyl #2 and do the heads, and I have no regrets because I've had over 16k miles of great fun in 2 years, and will probably reach the 30k mile service interval due to miles, not time. How many 355 owners can say that? Not too many. This is just my personal first hand experience as an 8 year 1995 F355B owner and it would not have been possible without my great indy shop. I'd like to keep this car forever, but I would consider selling it for $350,000 if anyone's interested. Maayyyyyybe $200,000 if I really like you and you throw in a mint 458 Italia.
I'm with Greg on this one. The current American mantra is commoditization. There is a general lack of understanding by many and a general devaluation of others and their talents in an attempt to commoditize them. While valve guides and head gaskets are a comodity, engine building and mechanical skills of execution are not. There is no set price for that which is not a commodity. If you have skills that someone wants the price is what the market will bare. Those who fail to understand that will always be poor.
I'll paint another picture for you as to why costing more doesn't necessarily mean better. In my area there are a number of service facilities. Some totally independent, some exotic car dealers. Some Ferrari dealers. The independents are run by guys who are ex Ferrari trained techs. We have already, in the past, discussed the cost and quality of parts supplied by the after market and Ferrari OEM. OEM Ferrari parts is no guarantee of quality. But lastly there is the cost break down. That $xxx dollar labor doesn't go directly into the pocket of the tech. There is overhead involved; rent, taxes, utilities, perhaps health insurance, profit and lastly, salary. So you go to a small independent shop with 10,000 sq ft and 3 or 4 guys working the overhead is a lot lower than a dealer with 50,000 sq ft shop, a show room, 20 guys working, a parts department, managers, assistant managers, secretaries, receptionists, ...... This scenario is exactly what results in people going out and creating small businesses in the first place. It's quite possible that the tech working at the smaller shop is getting a high salary while at the same time the hourly labor rate is lower becauseof lower over head. Another thing to consider is if you bring your 16 year old 355 or 20 year old 348 or 30 year old 308 to a dealer with 10 or more techs do you really think their best tech will be assigned to your car? I would not doubt that if you take your car to a smaller shop with 3 or 4 guys and which specializes in older and vintage Ferraris the tech that works on your car could easily be better qualified for your vehicle. I just don't see that you can tie quality of service to labor rates or cost. There are too many other variables. As for the guy who pays $40k for a rebuild. Let's not call him an idiot. Let's just say he may have been taken advantage of.
My apologies for possibly offending the guy who paid the 40k. The point i'm trying to convey, and the topic of this thread " have we destroyed the 355 " is that the car only had 29k on it. i could see maybe a failed liner , but all 8 , all 8 pistons, all 8 TITANIUM RODS ? Imagine telling this story to 911 guy , i can already see the eyes rolling back , as the 911 guy thinks " at 29k , boy those cars have crap for engines" . If the car needed valve guides , then it did , but theres nothing so delicate inside a 348 or 355 engine that makes them capable of doing 29k before needing complete rebuilds. So yes , an owner who accepts that job ,doesn't ask why it needs 8 titanium rods, and tells other people of his experience , destroys the reputation of the 355.
Further more , that dealer that did that job must have one sweet talker working the service dept. If you're the guy who has no mechanical ability , you HAVE to ask questions, the service writer , usually gets a "performance bonus" . you can't just assume it is so because the dealer told you so , get a second opinion. i have a chain auto repair place in our town that i've seen sell a camry rear brake job for $1000. I don't care who you are or how rich you are , 40k is a lot of money. If i had so much money that i could throw away $40k i think i would be beyond a 3xx , i 'd drive an f40 , in the snow just to piss people off .
John I agree with your post with one exception. Many Ferrari dealers have techs that are long timers and they do work on older cars. When my car had it's last major (May 2012), it was done by Algar and their top tech, Tony D. In some cases, paying a premium (small %, relatively), can result in better results. In all trades, professions, etc, you have zeros and heroes. I've been blown away at times by the quality of a new business and then been greatly disappointed by the expected experts. I'm sure we have all experienced this.
Just a pertinent factoid here The car that I didn't buy because of the ppi, cc and leak down at Algar had two cylinders with less than desirable readings. The car ran great and there was no evidence of issues otherwise I went to the seller, a Porsche dealer and told them if they fixed it I was still a buyer. They called Algar and were told the cost was 25k to fix I am assuming and I was there personally for the ppi , that number was for the top end alone. I don't know that for a fact it didn't include bottom end work as well but there was no conversation about anything other than valve issues when I was there.
If it didn't include bottom end work then it probably also included replacing headers and cats. Those bits add up but once they are fixed correctly they won't be back to haunt you.
It definitely did not include headers or cats as they were inspected at the ppi and deemed satisfactory. The sole topic of discussion was the leak down on two cylinders. The full details of this are in my history early with photos and video.
Interesting... That seems pricey but perhaps it included a major service as well then? since they have to drop the engine to do the heads anyway.
There was no discussion on that Carm. I'm positive it was only to correct the deficiency that was prohibiting me from purchasing the car
Bob, Wasn't the root cause of the problem unknown? And was that figure just an estimate? I seem to recall it being 30k actually but only an estimate since they would not known the actually cost until they go into the work to see what the root cause was. I think people would rather estimate high and come in lower than the other way around.
Carl, you must have ESP! I was just thinking about your T1 car as I was driving into work today. If we step outside of the Ferrari world for a minute and look at dollars spent across other platforms, the Corvette world is a great example. (Same for Porsche.) Everyone in T1 has to prep their car to the same rulebook. What is the cost of fielding a car built by Phoenix Motorsports with a Katech engine versus fielding the same car built by FatBillyBob, right? They are both T1 cars, but only the owners/drivers know whether the Phoenix was "worth" 2 or 3x the cost of the FBB car.
You guys have to trust me on this one, i've worked at a new dealer ( not ferrari ) years ago , i'm a car dealer , my best friend is the general manager at a new dealer. I don't care if were talking fords or ferrari's , the profit margin on the car is not enough to keep their bottom line in the black , especially at a low volume make like ferrari. How do you fix that , you sell parts and service, that's where they make their money. Second problem , the ferrari owner doesn't accumulate enough miles on the car for normal service intervals, solution , shorten the intervals, make the owner think something catastrophic will happen. I'm not saying don"t do your timing belt at 30k , its more of an age thing in respect to the rubber , but i've seen the engine internals and they are VERY robust. Perfect example , over the summer on copart auctions, there was a 2001 360 With 595k on it . Yes you read it right. it was listed as actual miles and pictured the odometer at 595xxx.x. ( my friend Matt , if you're on here , back me up , we discussed this and i know you looked too ). Take care of your car the way that makes you happy, but they are capable of much more with less attention than you think. Drbob, alot of times , i've read , compression issues can come from lack of use , it's a well known ferrari thing that driving it will usually cure compression problems.
Yes, very true. Some dealers do have long timers. Other not so much. Some dealers are known for excellent service, others, not so much. But regardless, whether it Tony D. working on your car or the new guy they just hired with 2 months experience, you are going to pay the same labor rate at a dealer. And there are always believers that think you have to have the service done by Ferrari if you want quality. You can apply the argument anywhere. In 1999 a new F355 cost close to $150,000. A new Honda Civic cost about $13,000. Which is really the better quality car? Ever hear of headers breaking on a Civic? How about cats failing? Sticky switches?
Hi John, I posted this a few days on another thread but based on your comment about some of the cars symptoms from lack of use I thought it was relevant to post it here as well so here it is: I have been meaning to post this for a long time but have not managed to put my thoughts to key board clicks until now. I am not gifted at telling stories so I am long winded but if you have the patience to read what I am about to type I think it will help you find a 355 that will make you a happy owner. So here goes... I purchased my current 355 back in Sept 2007 from my local Ferrari dealer. The car had a recent major service and the valve guides were done as part of the service so I did not have an independent PPI done. The car drove fine, sounded fine didn't use any oil so all is good right? Well in October 2011 the check engine light came on, it was the first time in 4 years I got a check engine light so I was not going to ignore it. I brought the car to the independent Ferrari Shop I was using, they did a full comprehensive major service on the car in the fall of 2009. Back then I did ask them to check the headers and to replace them if they were showing signs of weakness. They did not replace them so I had the headers smoke tested every spring from my local shop to keep an eye on them. I told them the car ran fine, did not use any oil but I wanted them to see why the check engine light was coming on. Instead of trouble shooting that they claimed that when the engine was running and they stuck their head in the engine compartment their eyes watered which suggested a failed header. The shop is a 4 hour drive from my home so I couldn't just pop over and look at it. But I stick my head in the engine compartment all the time while the engine is running and my eyes don't water. Something didn't seem right to me. Anyway they wanted to do a compression and leak down test. I said sure, good idea. So they did it and it had okay numbers on the drivers side bank but very poor numbers on the passenger side. They did it on a cold engine and after my car had been sitting there for a few weeks not running. They said it could be that its carboned up since I don't drive it a lot but they recommend a full engine rebuild or I sell the car as is because it would not be worth it to fix it. I was stunned to say the least. I have been around cars and engines since I was a kid, I have a good feeling for when a machine is running well and can sense when it runs differently. Anyway I let the car sit at the shop for a few months while I pondered what to do. I got some good advice from a well known Ferrari tech on FChat that unfortunately does not post here any more. He said, take it back home and check it myself. So that is what I did, I arranged for transport and had my car shipped back to my home in March of 2012. When I met the transport driver, he told me wow what a nice car. He then proceeded to tell me "it sounds good, started right up when I had to unload it, its hard to imagine that its worthless" I said "Why do you say that?" He told me that is what the guy at the shop said, apparently it needs a full engine rebuild. Geez, I thought I am sure glad I got my car out of that shop. So I did my own investigating of the car and it turns out 3 header bolts on the passenger side were lose which would explain the hint of an exhaust leak and possible eye watering experienced from the shop. The headers on the other hand looked and sounded fine but I wasn't going to continue taking chances with them so I removed the entire stock exhaust system. I visually inspected the the valves (you can see the ends when the headers are off) and the drivers side ones were white while the passenger side ones were black. I had a friend that rebuilds motorcycle engines give me his thoughts on the appearance and he suggested the bank with the white ones runs leaner then the ones with the black ones but otherwise it looks fine. So I proceeded to install Ferrari Euro Challenge Stradale Headers and an exhaust system manufactured by Gothspeed that mates those headers to sport cats and sport muffler that eliminate the need for the bypass valve. I buttoned the car up, did a fresh oil change and fired her up. Wow, what a sound! I took it for a drive and it drove stronger then ever before, I could break the rear tires lose in 2nd gear. It never felt so strong! I was so glad I took the car back home and worked on it myself. The true test from my perspective would be if it would pass an emission test which it was due. That would tell me if the internals of the engine were in fact as bad as that compression/leak down test claimed. So I took it for the emission test and it passed 100%. The well known Ferrari tech on FChat that unfortunately does not post here any more was very happy to hear my results. He told me to just drive it and enjoy it. He suggested I monitor the engine's health by having a compression test done each year and as long as it doesn't get worse just keep driving it and address it properly at the next major service. So I had a local shop that I trust and use for my other vehicles do a compression test this summer (2013). The shop owner knows my 355 very well, I have lent it to him a few times since I got it back in 2007. His impressions on how it drove after I replaced the full exhaust was like mine, it drove stronger then ever and he could not feel anything wrong with it. But I told him I was advised to get a compression test to monitor the engine health so please do it anyway. The results of the 2013 compression test were over the top better then the one from the fall of 2011. The drivers side bank were perfect at 225psi for each cylinder. The passenger side back on the other hand was not great but way better then the last test. Cylinders (1=185, 2=153, 3=207, 4=207). The car does not use any oil so its hard for me to understand why the passenger side bank has these weaker numbers. Perhaps the lifters on that bank are weak or the replaced valve guides on that bank were not seated correctly. What I do know for a fact is that the car drives better then when I first picked it up from the Ferrari dealer back in 2007 so there is no reason to worry, just drive it and enjoy it, and that is what I have been doing I don't have any plans to sell this car but if I did, I would want this story to be known and I would price the car accordingly. I hope those of you that are shopping for a 355 get the full story of any car you are looking at so that your Ferrari ownership will be one with eyes open and expectations set. If you do then you will certainly enjoy your experience no matter what the outcome.
