David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

Don't know if this picture ever came up here, but I came across it today.

Striking car.

Not sure if this is 0858, but it shows how good the Can Am looked at speed.

(Not sure who took the picture or who holds its copyright either, sorry)
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Should be 0858 at Surfers Paradise, September 1, 1968 with Amon driving

 

3 or 4 pedants on fchat do not account for half the community!

 

Amon/ 350 Canam 0858 at Longford Pacific Sud handicap (Sport)

© Jim and Pat Smith

 

Thanks a lot! Merci beaucoup!

 

If half the community hates the car, half must love it. Therefore, who are the 2 or 3 members you're referring to as pedants besides yourself?

 

I understand all the discussion about "authenticity, history,
English wheel" and all that. I want to know what "The Market" thinks........Scott[/QUOTE]

OMG, Scott. Some time in the mid-20th Century I wrote on this thread to the effect that there is no "The Market" for this P4 or whatever someone thinks it may be. With respect to rare tangible personalty 'the market' is what a single buyer and a single seller agree at that time and on that day will be the price of that particular commercial transaction. For that is all that this sale was: a commercial transaction.

That does not mean that the actual price is not of real interest, especially to the hardy band of crazies, myself included, who are still here!

But what half the 'contributors' to this thread think or the other half think this automobile is worth is utterly irrelevant to the value, expressed in dollars, euros, sterling or gold bullion, agreed on by this buyer and this seller on the day that the sale occurred.

Everything else is flatulence.

 

It would be pretty cool to add a poll to this thread to see how the sentiments stack up after all this discussion. Not that it matters as long as the buyer is happy, but it would be interesting to see what views on Fchat are after 2500+ posts discussing it.

 

If you take your blinkers off and read my last few post you will see I have questioned some elements of the car.

I am on the fence about it, I neither berate or extol it, the car is what it is, which is the point I have tried to make all along, as have many others.

 

Wake me when someone says something new.

 

Here's something new that actually adds value to this "discussion".

Very rare and very crude aerodynamic testing footage of the Can-Am prototipo.

http://i.imgur.com/tbBxELu.gif

What does the "community" do with this???

Haters go elsewhere!!!!!!!

The dog is a tough old girl!!!

 

Cool.
But in this context who's the ball and who the dog?

 

I will let the noted experts tell us what this is; because we all know they will.

 

Thank you for correction! Seemed an odd view for SP.....

 

Look carefully at the ending. The ball is almost at a stop but the dog jumps up and is ready for another go. I don't much care who the ball is.I will take the dog any day. tongascrew

 

Word is that Mrs D.P. is working on the book.Let's hope she is successful.It should be one of the great stories. tongascrew

 

OMG, Scott. Some time in the mid-20th Century I wrote on this thread to the effect that there is no "The Market" for this P4 or whatever someone thinks it may be. With respect to rare tangible personalty 'the market' is what a single buyer and a single seller agree at that time and on that day will be the price of that particular commercial transaction. For that is all that this sale was: a commercial transaction.

That does not mean that the actual price is not of real interest, especially to the hardy band of crazies, myself included, who are still here!

But what half the 'contributors' to this thread think or the other half think this automobile is worth is utterly irrelevant to the value, expressed in dollars, euros, sterling or gold bullion, agreed on by this buyer and this seller on the day that the sale occurred.

Everything else is flatulence.[/QUOTE]




I think your comment shows good humor,
and I like what you have to say.

My point expanded is this:

1) The most common expression of "market value"
is in $$, Jen, Euro, etc.

The value of various currency is pretty well understood
across cultures and economies. Even is the darkest
part of Africa, folks know the value of gold within
the dollar, and within the last day.

2) To say a car "sold" for $50,000 elicits a much different response
than saying the car sold for $50,000,000. That's whether the car
is a P4 or a 250GTO or a P4 replica.

The "selling price, in dollars, etc, allows individuals to form
an opinion for "an item" that is if somewhat general interest.

3) Having established an idea of what "the market" thinks,
an individual can "rank order" the (relative) value of that objects
with other objects of interest.

4) Not many folks would pay $10,000,000 for an object
that is perceived to have a value of $4,000,000. Most people
would decline an "investment" that would yield a "net loss" of
$6,000,000 if sold at the "wrong time."

5) If the P4/350 sold for at or near the price of a "true" P4,
than at least one potential buyer thought that was the correct price.
That goes a long way toward establishing a "market price."

6) If the "market price" is at or near the value of the
"unloved" 350, than that also shows a "market price."

7) If the new buyer also received all the old "350" parts,
he has covered his bets well, since the car could be made
"back into" the 350, remain as a "P4,"
and have all those possibilities reserved.

8) Who knows, maybe the buyer got the "P4" for the right price,
and wants to "re-convert" the "P4" back into the world's only 350......

Scott

 

I hear she likes the title "There are Ferrari's at the end of my garden"

 

got it, Scott. Our real disagreement, if there is any, is entirely semantic. The selling price of this car established nothing more than its 'market' value that day between those two people. My point is that as with this car, whatever it is, there simply is no discernible market value for a P4, any P4, since there exist only 'X' - you fill in the very tiny number since there is obvious disagreement on what we call a P4 - and none are for sale.

Same comment wrt a Bugatti typ 57SC Atlantic of which I believe just three exist and none are for sale.

I hope this thread's readers will forgive this illustrative and relevant personal story that some may have read elsewhere:

in 1978 I bought from Luigi Chinetti my old 1967 365GTC prototype #10581. It was a 330GTC that Leopoldo Pirelli, CEO of his patronymic Company, had ordered through his friendship with Enzo who had directed the installation of a typ 245 4.4 liter engine. The plaque in the engine bay denominated the car as a 365GTC. Pirelli had commissioned Campagnolo to create a set of hand-forged 15" star mag wheels for the car (all GTC's have 14" wheels, either Borranis or stock alloys) making these wheels the prototypes for the star mag wheels that debuted on the 365GTB4 Daytona.

Two years later Tom Parker, who had bought Chinetti Int'l from Luigi, Sr., wanted to buy back my GTC. I told him that this was a car I wished to own for life and that it was not for sale. Tom said is there no price that will buy your car? and I replied that I am not selling my daughter's virtue so I suppose that there is probably a price that would persuade me to sell it. He said tell me the price. A few days later I called him and told him he could buy the car for a quarter million dollars (I had paid $25K). Predictably he said that's crazy, way above the 'market'. I said - I know, I picked a price intended to convey the idea that the car is not for sale. Now if Tom had really really wanted the car and had agreed to pay 250k that would have been the market for that car on that day.

There is a P.S. that actually did fix a 'market value' for my GTC at that time: Tom came back and offered to take my 365GTC and $10K for a flawless 4 cam 275 GTB that he had just bought and I turned the offer down. Bad business decision but my GTC gave me such pleasure in the intervening 29 years, a fabulously enjoyable car to drive that was also on loan to the Petersen, the Behring at Blackhawk and our own Saratoga Auto Museum and chance meetings with Piero Ferrari and Sergio Pininfarina etc etc.

There is a P.P.S. I sold the GTC at David Gooding's Pebble auction in 2007, hammer price was $345K and with buyer's premium buyer Wayne Oldenburg paid $379,500. Just a year ago at Bonham's Scottsdale auction Wayne sold the car, hammer price $800K, the single sale that I believe blew the top off the GTC 'market' and that for most 1960s Ferraris.

 

Would indeed be interesting, though out of principle it will be one I buy second hand on e bay.

I do hope the book has lots of pictures though.

 

So whats the price of a "true" P4? Please tell me. I probably cant afford it but I still like to know.

 

Call Mr Stroll and keep offering. Whatever you buy it for is the price of the only true P4 in the world.

That's if you bids aren't laughed at of course.

 

There are pictures which show how true this is. As I recall much of this came as a result of the deal with E.F. and all those P3/4 parts. Let's face it there is no single person who has had more years of hands on experience owning, building,restoring,tuning,driving, racing, buying and selling, etc. etc. these incredible cars. This was and is his life. Of course there are differences of opinion on how some things were done by him. But there are those who owe their experiences in one way or another to David Piper. And there are others with what is obviously no real knowledge of David Piper or the many racing cars, including Ferraris, he has worked on and driven for over 50 years who for no viable reason seem bent on destroying his reputation. Whome ever you are wasting our time with baseless trivia. This second group can be forgiven for ignorance. The others who are in debt to David Piper should be taken behind the wood shed like David Stockman and......... Cheers tongascrew

 

Have a look at some of the old pictures of 0854. There are several pictures of 0854 body work at the end of her garden. tongascrew

 

I don't think the point of view is a dis-like or dis-respect for Piper but rather most don't respect taking the last 350 Can Am, a car that survived time as a authentic works Ferrari and changing it to resemble the P4 it once was with recreation parts.

As much original P4 as is in the recreation was in the Can Am.

I would guess that many admire the Career Piper has had but don't respect taking a survivor and leaving it with less then it once was. Mostly when it seems that the reason to do so was motivated by financial gain.