thanks do you remember which magazine issue ? is it Genroog ? they are so many pages in the Urraco thread...
olivier here u go...http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/137847753-post56.html as a bonus the yellow test mule is next to the rallye
It'll be nice to know where are the 4v engine now, I saw two on the same photo, also what became the 6 speed gearbox? I never saw a photo of that gearbox. For rebuilt a rally car, it'll be nice to find an other pre-serial car, one became the rally car an other one was destroyed for the crash test at MIRA (the yellow one), how much car was built?
i think i have photo of the 6 speed sitting at the factory shop somewhere... i havent checked it to see if it actually is a 6 speed or just a standard box. but thats what the caption said. you seen a photo with 2 4v motors? i would love to see that. can you post that up please? regards hf
Yes two 4V, one with carbs and one with injection. I'll post the photo soon, also if you could find the photo of the gearbox, I like o see it.
4V engines, are you see not timing chain on the one with injection? Belt on a 3 liter engine... Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Are these really 4V engines or engines with 4 camshafts? Since these might have been proto engines for the P300 engine as well, since nobody ever saw the internals. The only engine bay picture I ever saw of Urraco Bob is in Marchet's Book, there it looks like a regular P300 engine. But the text says 4v engine with 310hp and dry sump. The whole thing is like all the rumours and myths around Lamborghini of those days, interesting enough how all these mega mighty parts disappeared without a trace, if they existed at all. If those two engines were really 4V not only 4 cams, why they didn't produce them? Even the Jalpa was built till 1988 with 2V whereas the countach got 4V from 1985 on and Ferrari built the QV engines for their 308/328, for sure they had enough money at Mimran's time to build a 4V jalpa engine.
Raymond, see the exhaust pipe 8 ports on one side, and the camshaft cover are the same on the two engine.
Makes sense, but where are those engines now and why they didn't produce them, even not for the jalpa...
I like to know where they are if they still exist, it will be nice to see view from Inside for knowing how they buit them, it will be interresting to know if they do the same for the camshaft as on the P300 and Jalpa.
yes they are P300 engines with a 4v head. marchet book photo is a 2v agreed, plenty of rumors and myths back then however wallace did come clean and spilled the beans on many of the ledgendary myths. Even ferrucio himself stated he'd rather drive his ferrari right before his passing. i reckon there were plenty of reasons why they didnt produce the 4v. R&D, tooling, homologation,..etc times were tough during this period and they already had trouble selling the excess stock of the v8 components. Remember its been said they wanted to build bravo which was also based on a shorten urraco platform but they were instructed to build cars using as many unaltered urraco parts as possible hence the development of the silhouette. adding another engine 4v spec would add complexity to the P200 and P300 already supplementing the 2.5liter motors not to mention the current line of motors were already underdeveloped with suspect reliability. All things equal, the main attributes of a 4v is increase curtain area for high flow at high revs and not low end torque. My personal view is when alfieri came over from Maserati the lambo cars became less extreme with and a more refined product with milder tuned motors. He went on saying in Car magazine featuring the jalpa preproduction prototype that a few horsepower at the peak rpms didn’t really matter on road cars. They were arguably a better street car with more low end torque for real world drivability. Increasing displacement was one way of achieving that with the 2v heads. 4v were a novelty back then mostly found on racecars and motorcycles. Im guessing the urraco 4v motors were built in 73-75. At that time there was only one 4v motors on the market in the modern era. I recall it being the lotus 907 develop motor found on the 73 Jensen Healy. Ferrari a much larger a financially stable company than lambo have been building 4v race motors since the 60’s, the first 4v mondial qv motor (before the more sporting 308) came out a decade and a half in 83. Yes it would have been fantastic if they produced a v4 v8 lambo car. If someone can located these motors and possibly have the heads reproduced to fit in standard 3.0 and 3.5 liter cars today. But as a business venture it would be suicidal. Upon taking a closer look at the bravos-v8 pic, I don’t think those are carbs for they have both injection fuel lines and ignition wires. Most fascinating that there were two variants. Perhaps the belt driven motor were based of a 2.5 while the chain ones the 3.0. Whatever the case these motors they are sexy as hell! many thanks for sharing that fasinating pic with the 2 motors... hf
To add some more historic pictures, I found this italian magazine featuring CLA12001 in 1982: Lamborghini Jalpa, Magazine Article
hf, very interesting... I agree, locating these 4v heads would be great. I know someone who can duplicate limited serie production, but I don't bet to located them one day or another. I believe they don't exist anymore, knowing the repetitive cleaning the facory endures since Kimberley era... but who knows...
raymond nice link... thank you. thats one of the pre-production test jalpas i believe with a part line front spoiler, different interior and subtle differences on the fender flares. regards hf
Hyenahf has asked me to post this picture of the six speed box on his behalf.... Image Unavailable, Please Login
very interesting given the amount of drawings and worcks needed to build a 4V engine and the number of engines built (2 at least), now i think this was not a "Wallace night project" only thing. i think it was probably a factory development project for the V8 cars and possibly one of those engines finally found room in the urraco Bob? what are your thoughts? in anycase they are really nice looking engines and a pity they did not made to productions...but the reasons posted are good. i add that a 3000cc 4V engine may have been to close for performances to the "flagship" engine of the time: the 4000 cc 2V ...so may be killed at birth by factory management ?
that pic cames from Rob de la Rive Box's book... Hyenahf, don't worry he is dead since 2008 and won't sue you to have make a scan of his pic... There are so many Lambo books that remembering the content of all of them is hard...
exactly, that's what Bob & Paolo confirmed... it was plan for the production, but because of the lack of capital, it was not possible to investigate in a reliable street use engine...
Actually the first truly mass-produced 4-valve head came in the 1973-1980 Triumph Dolomite Sprint, although the valves were actuated by a single camshaft (I remember studying the technical details with great interest back then). Triumph Dolomite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Going from a few prototype 4-valve heads to production likely required more funds, than Lamborghini had available at the time. Also, thanks to the pictures of the 4-valve engines, I had not seen those before. Laust
hi emilio i see no reason why it couldnt be a wallace night project with help through the factory involvements. of course we know he did 2 similar projects before the urraco. the original jota wasnt just a suped up miura. the whole chassis, suspension and body were unique fabricated from scratch. though not as involved as an bespoke pair of head perhaps but yes they needed some sort of drawings to create and fabricate the above mention. im sure he had factory help in building the cars. in my view it is highly unlikely that mechanical shower type fuel injection couple with slide throttles were intended for anything but for the race track. the rallye was built up to what gr4 levels of the day much like a porsche RS to a RSR spec and may have been as a test bed for various components (wasnt this the first lambo to experiment with the P7 before the bravo?). to build a production motor you wouldnt normally built an all out race motor first. thats not to say what they learnt or had couldnt be developed further for possible production in the future. as for 2 4v motors, it dosent take much more effort to cast more heads. whether is just 1 pair or a 100... Designing/engineering the head and creating the mold patterns is where the efforts lays. remember many small racing outfits were building 4vales heads for various 2v engines in the early 70s. abarth with 124 rally, dino/stratos. independent angelini with a 4v alfa supplementing autodeltas own 4v heads . even dallara himself built a 4v in 73 found on the flippenetti and later dallara x19. i believe wallace was out to build this race oriented project and was curious how a 4v would wake up the urraco motor with the hope on someday technology would trickle down to the production cars. that 6-speed picture came from urraco rallye section of a book. strangely enough it dosent look elongated from a shock casing to house the extra grear of normal thickness. i know of circumstances were vintage racers cheat and replace the reverse gear with an extra forward gear. im not suggesting that was done with the rallye 6-speed but this maybe one quick and easy way to run evaluate a 6 speed box without designing a new transaxle. Laust, many thanks on the correction on the dolomite though wasnt aware of this, I was generally speaking DOHC motors. My 2 cents hf
