insulted by a kit car

Where do you see that I said the badge is more important than the car and that whole showers vs drivers put down? My only point is that lying is lying and dishonesty is dishonesty.

Continuation cars are just that. No one is lying or stealing from someone else. I *think* I would rather have a GT40 made under license exactly as the original cars than a Ford GT but that's my personal preference. Shelby used Kirkham original bodies for their aluminum continuation cars. If you buy a Shelby you're buying a Kirkham. So don't think that it's the badge that matters. It's the honesty that does.

The other thing is that cars deteriorate. Bad things happen sometimes. If I had a Stratos and the original body panels failed, I think the people you have to call for new ones are Lister Bell and Hawk. If you're a Stratos owner, I think you're most likely grateful that those guys exist. They reproduce parts that wear out that help you keep the car you love on the road. And as much as I like what they do, I can't own one unless I'm starting with a real Stratos frame.

I have a 1967 911 that's coming together right now and I picked pieces from all kinds of other 911s to make it. And guess what? It shares a fair amount of the donor parts with a very significant competition 911 that's being restored alongside it. I'm not going to walk around and tell people to check out my all original 911. But it is 100% Porsche 911 through and through and that's what matters.

It's the honesty that matters.

 

28 with a vintage Ferrari? Fine work my man. I was 38 when I bought my first one and was proud to be in an extreme minority. Congrats on making it at a young age and for being one of the few in your generation to understand the value of these beautiful classic Ferraris.

 

+1

This video raises SO many red flags...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T1f24JVaMU]Lamborghini Aventador replica for only $20,000 supereplicas.com - YouTube[/ame]

 

That's a real Lambo btw. Those dishonest sellers use that to entice potential buyers. The videos of the stuff they actually build look like they belong in comic books they're so poorly proportioned.

 

+1

Well said.

Fake watches are the lowest IMO. I would rather not wear a watch.

 

This thread makes me want to get an F40 and have a Fiero body kit put onto it.
With Pontiac badges all OVER the place!

edit: Always liked this 2CV/355 (even though it seems s-o-o-o wrong!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iquPhTaI390

 

If someone is using another companies logo without permission it is theft and that still a crime no matter how cool the car looks. Some reproductions are licenced and are legally allowed to carry the trademark of the car they are trying to replicate.

People that think fakes are a viable option always have flawed logic such as this. People too poor to buy a Ferrari have to buy a 308? WTF? A 308 is a Ferrari. I you are too poor to buy a Ferrari, you can't buy a Ferrari, maybe a fake, but not a Ferrari.

Someone who buys a fake F430 is pretending they have a Ferrari. They do not own a Ferrari.

LOL! Fakes make the Ferrari brand more appealing? WTF? You can't be serious. Companies like Ferrari need lawyers to battle the constant illegal infringement on their copyright and trademark, that illegal use is what you think is some sort of free-market?

 

Thank you. I personally don't understand why someone feels it cheapens what they drive when they see a copy of it. When I see a kitcar I'll take a good look at it and appreciate the work that went into it. If you think you just pull the body off a Fiero, bolt on another one and go for a drive you have no idea of the work involved. Don't like it.....don't build one. It has no effect on the value of what you drive. If anyone can't tell an average replica (Ferrari, Cobra) then you don't know enough about the real one. If someone thinks my Ferrari is a replica, I think it's amusing, not insulting at all. It means the person making the judgement doesn't know enough about these cars. So what? Most people don't.

By the way, anyone can build a replica of anything they want and put all the original badging on it they like and there is nothing illegal about it and nothing anyone can do. Selling it is another matter, but building it for yourself is fine. I like the "real" cars and I like the replicas. I have real Ferrari's and like to build kitcars. The more it bothers you the more I'll park my kitcar beside you for the amusement!

There are probably 100 times more "fake" Cobras than real ones around. Has that brought down the value of the real ones? Probably the opposite since it made more people familiar with the Cobra.

 

^That's pretty funny.

Actually, Does that make such an hypothetical owner an anti-poser? I.E If he has a real Ferrari but only HE knows so?

 

If the movement is fake yes. But what if the movement and face are genuine? Is it not a Patek anymore because someone hand made the case, crown and crystal? Is it 100% real; No. Is it completely fake? I'm not so sure. Is it worth what a 100% real one is? Of course not. Just like a cut Daytona is not. That doesn't stop some fairly serious enthusiasts from buying/selling/cutting coupes.

What defines real? To me if it's got a Ferrari engine and running gear but another model's hand made aluminum body - the most important part is quite real. Such owners are not "posers" and the car is not "fake". I'd say semi real? Hybrid? Not fake though.

 

Yes correct I agree with you. We're more in agreement than we're not by the way

But they are still forgeries regardless of the legalistic use of the logo or not. The Norwood P4, which is beautiful for example, is a fake as are many more licensed companies' products. So are licensed fakes ok? Does that remove the poseur factor? But non-licensed ones are not ok? If so then why?

Maybe we're not fully communicating. I don't want a fake Ferrari. And if I had one I would just say to everyone: "Hey, all, look at me--this is fake" because there would be no way to hide it anyway. People cannot "hide" a fake Ferrari for long unless it is done inside and out to concours standards (as seen in the GTO link here: 1963 Replica 250 GTO Reconfiguration). But most fakes are only done with body kits. One look at the dash board and console and seats and you know it is not a Ferrari. Same for the engine. A fake engine cannot sound like a Ferrari unless it is a Ferrari engine.

But I'm mirroring back the logic often used in replica threads in general, ie, that someone should just buy a real 308 (or some other even lesser-regarded Ferrari such as a Mondial or 348) and get happy. That is often the train of thought used when arguing against having a replica. The replica buyer should be happy with a real Mondial but not a fake F430 (which looks much better).

And then I countered with: Then why is there a market for fake F430s that cost as much or more than a 308? What if someone in the market for a fake doesn't want a real 308? But it is most often phrased in replica threads that the fake buyer should be happy with a real 308. I've seen dozens of threads like this over the past years and they're all the same.

These threads will not stop a replica from being built--worse yet--from a REAL Ferrari being BUTCHERED to create a GTO replica. Which is worse? Destroying a real Ferrari to make a fake or building a fake one using fiberglass and add-ons? To be clear, I am actually anti-replica particularly when it comes to using real Ferraris to create "tribute cars." See this article: Chad Glass: Ferrari 250 GTE and 330 GT to be Hunted to Extinction

But in a replica thread such as this someone will say "Look, what an idiot! Paying as much or more for a fake when they could have bought a real Ferrari 308! LOL!" But clearly the fake buyer doesn't want a real 308 or they would have bought it. But the attitude suddenly does an about-face when a GTO replica is built using a real 250GTE or 330 donor car. In that case the act is often supported. Do you see what I mean?

That's right

Yes. And what % of replica buyers are taking food from the mouths of new Ferrari dealerships? Moreover, the free market includes the black market. It is free. Do want to do some blow? Ok. Go to a coke dealer. Want a machine gun? Great. You can have that, too. Just open your wallet and everything will come to you at your request. The market speaks to what is reality, regulations installed onto it or not. You cannot regulate the market entirely. It isn't possible. The free market, likewise, also includes the licensing market where the forgeries are "legal." But in either case the car is fake. The driver isn't driving a Ferrari. They're pretending. They're a poseur and they're lying. But do they care? No. Not one iota. Should you make them care? If so, then why? What if someone next door was doing blow all night and you never knew it. Would you care?

Look at this list again of replica makers Kit Car List of Auto Manufacturers and see which ones are infringing copyright yet still fully open for business, and which ones use official licensing and tell me if it changes the fact that the cars are all fakes. Look at huge the market is for it. Read this excerpt:

"The Kit Car List of kitcar manufacturers includes over 750 different manufacturers, builders and dealers of kit cars, turnkey vehicle kits, assembled vehicle kits, auto component builders, handbuilts, replicas and high performance race cars for the home built enthusiast with up-to-date contact information, links to websites, and thousands of actual kitcar photos of almost every kitcar available today.'

The irony is that, in all likelihood, were I to go to Cars & Coffee or something of that nature and put a sign on a replica Ferrari, say an F430, and blatantly advertise it as fake then it would gather more of a crowd than a real F430 because real F430s are common at those events. You are more likely to see a real F430 than a fake one because the notion of a fake F430 is outrageous. A fake F430 at an Italian car event would draw polarized reactions and be at the center of controversy and attention. It would upstage the real one. I may actually compile some of this into a follow-up article to the GTE "extinction" thread. It's a hot topic

 

You know what a kit car without phony badges is called? A hot rod!

And I have no objection to hot rods, or building a car that resembles a Ferrari, Porsche, M-B, Lambo, or whatever. But when they "put horsies all over it," i.e., present it as something that it is not, that's when I have a problem.

There are a lot of replica apologists on F-Chat (see "Crappy Replicas" and "Not-So-Crappy Replicas.") Honestly, I don't know why they're here. Their rationale for replicas is that: 1)They're entitled to build fake cars because they cant afford the real thing; 2) It's cheaper to maintain and insure a fake; 3) The cars that they are based on are actually faster, more reliable, etc; and 4) They want to have the same driving experience as they would have with the real thing.

I think that the inherent fallacies of these arguments should be obvious, so without going into a rebuttal of their reasoning, I'll just say: If you want a Firebird, Corvette, Fiero, VW, or whatever that's made to resemble (with varying degrees of success) a Ferrari, go for it. It's your car. But be honest about what you have, and don't represent it as something it's not. Sooner or later, you will be humiliated.

 

This part I agree with.

This part I disagree with as it leaves me wondering if it will be the kit car owner or the egocentric owner of a real exotic who makes an ass of themself? From my experience at least 75% goes to the latter.

 

Anything? Interesting perspective, however, an IDENTITY THIEF also builds a replica, that happens to be made to represent YOU. Nothing illegal? Nothing can be done? You're OK with that?

As said earlier, it's about HONESTY.

 

I would like to add that I'm not in favor of chopping up another Ferrari to make a GTO. I think that's wrong. Using parts is OK IMHO as they can be swapped back and forth. Cutting bodies and frames is not cool. I think a hand made GTO body with genuine Ferrari running gear would be a blast to drive. I don't plan to make one or buy one but If someone would rent me theirs for the day I sure as hell would pay some good money for the chance to feel (even a fraction) of what driving a real GTO is like.

Let's put it this way. In vegas you can do some laps in a new Lambo, Ferrari, etc, I'd want to drive the "fake" GTO before I'd want to drive the real modern Ferrari.

 

I remember that there was a photo from the "Art of Ferrari" exhibition on the cover of Prancing Horse a few years ago that showed a rebodied 308. The caption in the esteemed magazine listed it as a "288 GTO," although I could see a few details in the picture that told me that it was not.

Fortunately I was not the only person who noticed; before I could write to the editors about their error, somebody pointed out that it was really a 308, and that the owner "would be the first to tell you this."

While I can't really criticize this particular owner, since he is apparently honest about what he has, I personally don't understand turning a genuine Ferrari into a kit car.

 

now THERE'S a stealth car! ;-)

 

When a car started life as a Ferrari it will still be a Ferrari whether it's modified, customised or made to look like another model.

 

This has all been covered at great length in other threads. It's up to the manufacture to control its brand and what they wish to do with it. If they wish to grant licence to another company to make authorised reproductions, that is their right to do so whether I agree or not. They are in control of their brand. It some people in China decide to produce some illegal knockoffs to make a buck off Ferraris name without Ferraris consent then this type of free-market could land them in jail where freedom is quite limited.

 

More like someone spending a lot of money to look, dress and talk like you because they like your style.

Dismiss such posers if you will but before you do, take a look at all the girls who copied Jennifer Aniston's haircut or dressed just like Madonna. What about all the guys who went sockless with 5:00 shadows to imitate Don Johnson? (I know I'm dating myself, but you get my point and FWIW I never dressed like Don.)

Imitation is everywhere. In fact, If you don't wear Couture - your wearing imitations right now. Shirts, shoes, etc. Art always has been and will be imitated and spun. It's human nature and cars are not much different - especially modern ones IMHO.

Car guys are car guys. You may have your own opinions about what you like, but we all have the same passion - just with different tastes and opinions.

 

This is the about-face I am talking about that arises in replica threads. Suddenly it is ok to destroy real Ferraris.

Unless I am not reading your post correctly, you are implying that it is preferable and ok to destroy a genuine Ferrari and rebody it with a replica body, but to destroy a Fiero or Corvette to create a Ferrari replica is not ok.

How is this reconciled even though the rebodied and serial numbered "real", but destroyed, 250GTE or 330 is forever obliterated? Therefore, in replica threads on Ferrarichat it is ok to destroy real hand-beaten, hand-made, and historically relevant original Enzo-era handiwork that can never be brought back again.

 

Am interesting story is this car. It used to sport a Rolls Royce grill and emblem but the owner was sued by Rolls Royce because they claimed that the car was damaging their brand. The grill and any Rolls trademarks had to be removed after the owner lost the case.
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The sad reality is that a re-bodied Ferrari is still a Ferrari and a scratch built car without any consent from Ferrari is a fake. I have nothing to say about someone who wishes to modify their Ferrari. It's the people slapping the horse and name on cars that are not Ferraris and have nothing to do with the wishes of the company that I have a problem with. There is no about-face, this is pretty simple.

 

Your point about trademark infringement is real and I concur, yet in the anti-replica, ferrarichat style thread, it is still a double-standard. As we both know they're both fake anyway. The badge in this case is a piece of legalistic jewelry only. The Fantasy Junction GTO, for example, is at a concours level of recreation and is extremely impressive. It probably drives better than most real GTOs. It's actually amazing to the point of being stunningly beautiful. I like it. Who wouldn't? But its not a real GTO. So there must be a grey area.

Accidents at LeMans and factory rebodies notwithstanding, deliberate modern destruction of original Ferraris with intact serial numbers is perfectly acceptable as a practice. It is, for some, not even offensive. It is even encouraged. Companies do it and there are buyers for the conversions. It is implied, too, that the cost of entry and exclusivity makes destroying real Ferraris good news as well: The more well-appointed the replica is then the more acceptable it is even if it was created at the historical expense of destroying a perfectly good 250GTE or 330.

Oh well. Enjoy your cars--whatever they are!

 

Ferrari put an end to the plans a company had to build new a new Stratos. They had planed to use Ferrari chassis parts and engine without Ferraris consent. Ferrari even went so far as to tell its suppliers not to sell to them. Ferrari has every right to protect its brand and even how its components are used in some circumstances. Someone taking a Ferrari and re-bodying it into another Ferrari model is probably of very little concern to them.