insulted by a kit car

The papers only have the specs of the car, some have certain changes incorporated into the run, and not with a specific race series specified. At least the copies that I have.

There were F50GT competition cars produced but were never put into a series that I can recall. You can look up the history on these pretty easily, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_F50_GT . I also have homologation papers for the 308 and 328 those also don't specify a series although the only one of those that appeared in a series is the 308 for Group 4 rally. I am not an expert on what the papers are supposed to have, only that I have seen them and have copies of some of them saved onto hard drives here.

 

At this point, with the number of Ferraris sporting them from the factory, I'd say it comes down to whether the owner wants to have them or not.

Now how someone feels good about putting them on a fake replica they built in their shed, I can't see how they would feel right about it.

 

Can you please hunt them down and post scans of them? Or send them to my email? send to: [email protected]

I'm excited about this finding This is a shattering historical factoid that must be more known--worthy of an entire article story. I know that, for example, privateer companies created 550M racecars (Prodrive): Prodrive Ferrari 550 Maranello Race Car - Car News - Car and Driver

But the Prodrive cars are not factory/works cars supported by Ferrari directly. So how were the 550M's legally race prepared? This is of course going way off-topic but it's extremely interesting.

 

As the conversation has evolved, per sherpa23, the shields don't mean anything pro or con. They don't necessarily denote anything but Ferrari branding.

 

I think the larger point being made here is one of taste. Ie if you feel the need to add sheilds to a modern street ferrari you are advertising something, that you feel the need for a red ferrari and sheilds indicates as a matter of taste you are a poseur racer wanabee. Now by the same token if you have a recreation of a raw car, you may not even put badges on it, its for pure driving pleasure and your recreation is not a pose.

This is a taste arguement, based on appreciation of the thing for what it is rather than what it represents or may project. The arguement here about sheilds is nothing to do with legality, rather the need of many new ferrari owners to self assure and project their machines/wealth/sucess. Just because ferrari built and licensed it does not mean that its not a massive pose and in poor taste.
Whereas a lynx jaguar in BRG is not going to be reckognised as anything special other than those in the know, even though it costs 2x a new ferrari. A lynx may copy a lighweight or XKSS neither car instantly reckogiseable by public fools, but both desireable for those who like to drive.

So yeah I will take my 250 swb or 288 gto recreation without horsies on it, all I care about is the machine and how it goes, but yeah I do want a toolroom recreation.

 

That's Ferraris opinion also, in the end they mean whatever Ferrari wants them to mean.

 

All is good

I personally think the shields are sharp and neat-o

 

Even more so, what are your thoughts about all the goofballs who put them on their non-ferrari cars. Love seeing all the suvs/sedens driving around with the S/F badges stuck on the back of the trunk or the fenders.

Do you believe they are trying to deceive people into thinking they are driving a factory car? Don't answer it's a rhetorical question.

 

Maybe the shield represents their favorite F1 team. Why should the Ferrari shield be different from any other sports team's logo?

 

If you create your own shields with the Ferrari logo, you're faking/replicating a trademarked item.

As to whether you put Ferrari-produced/authorized shields on your car, it's a matter of taste. I wouldn't add them, but more because a Ferrari shouldn't have to "shout" what it is.

To your last point, Ferrari cares. It just shut down a "tribute" car builder in Spain. Many posts in this thread are written from the perspective that creating a fake/replica doesn't hurt anybody, but notice how no one seems to ask permission from Ferrari, even as a courtesy. People know that Ferrari would say 'no', and vehemently, because replicas hurt its brand.

On the watch analogy, there are many threads in FChat about how a certain car may outperform a Ferrari (think of several Porsches, newer Corvettes, Nissan GT-R Nismos, McLarens, etc.) And our response here is typically that those cars are the equivalent to your five dollar timepiece -- they may keep time better, or in this case be faster 0-60 or around the Nurburgring, but "it's not a Ferrari." No cachet, no history, no mystique, etc. Replicas/fakes simply trade on that cachet without compensating Ferrari. If they contributed anything to engineering, automotive technology, etc., then they might have a redeeming value. Instead, they gratify the ego of someone who can't afford or doesn't appreciate the real item.

Bottom line, yes. If everyone had "COPY" painted in large letters on the sides of the car, that might be different. But most replicas/fakes probably do deceive most onlookers most of the time.

 

Why someone would want to put Ferrari logos on a non Ferrari, I have no idea.

 

I passed on a used real Stratos years ago just after landing my first real job after tracking it for years.
$17,500. (Moral of the story if you can afford your dream do it.)
It was and still is one of my top 5 favorite cars.
I have no idea what a real one would cost today and would probably not step up to the plate IF I could find one.

The F1 coincidentally is on the same list.
Once again unobtainable.
I do look forward to the MP4 depreciating a bit more to the point where I can justify it.
That cars ticks most of the important boxes.

 

Bullfighter,
You mention fakes are to gratify the ego of the owner. This implies the real deal is for the same reason. I'd say correct for both categories in many cases.
I cannot afford a real Ford GT40 but I would gladly beat the snot out of a replica(or the real one given the $), not some kit that arguably only looks like one, but a recreation that would have the same driving experience. It has nothing to do with my ego. You could write FAKE in huge letters on it and this would not diminish my enjoyment of it a bit.
That is my point, some who cannot afford the original create their own to have a similar driving experience. I could not care less who is or is not impressed by what I own or drive, it is for ME.
The originals of many of the copied cars are so valuable as to be seldom or never driven, ceasing to be cars. A quality replica affords the opportunity to have the experience without the risk of destroying, art, history, etc. Perhaps useful even for the owner of an original.
The fakey-do kits are simply laughable and should offend no one. If the re-bodied Fiero with scuderia shields truly upsets anyone they need to get a life.
It is presumptuous to assume every owner has their car for the same reason.

Oh, Ferrari would do well to remember that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If a factory is cranking out copies of it's product that is one thing but a fellow who builds his own for his own enjoyment and not offering it as a Ferrari built car harms nobody.
The only reason Shelby was able to sell continuation cars is because of the fakes which remained visible, continuing the interest.

 

+1000

 

Badges? Perhaps to wave the banner of the scuderia. Obviously not to deceive. I found a picture of a Fiat truck wearing Scuderia badges.http://bringatrailer.com/wp-content/plugins/PostviaEmail/images/1959_Fiat_682:RN2_Ferrari_Transporter_Front_Pebble_Beach_resize.jpg
The logo and scuderia badge represent different things.

 

Wow that is awesome! Thank you.

 

#13 Yesterday, 11:03 PM
V-TWELVE
Formula Junior
Rossa Subscribed Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 931

I don't own a Ferrari but I have shields on my Audi. I don't know where I rate.


I'm not sure what to make of these two statements other than you need to be more consistent. And are the shields produced by a licensee of Ferrari?

 

I knew you were gonna troll me from the other thread. LOL So what? They are sweet reproductions I got off eBay. Real high quality too. What's it to you? Besides Lamborghini owns Audi now so they are basically an Italian car now days. And it's only a matter of time before Lamborghini buys fiat.

If you haven't guessed,I was kidding in the other thread that visualhomage started because of the discussion here. Anyhow that was some solid detective work you did there, Barney Fife would be proud.

 

I don't care if you have shields on your car, real or fake. Many people put them on to show support for their favorite car/F1 team, but when people start saying this and that about what others do and they should only buy a real Ferrari, to me, it just sounds very snooty.

Not everyone who would love to own a Ferrari is able to buy a Ferrari and buying is only a bit of the cost of ownership. When you do finally own one, I only hope you will have more of a sympathetic feeling for those who are not lucky enough to own one. I have been around many owners over the years and they have 308s, to an original GTO and most of them feel very lucky to have a Ferrari. They don't look down on anyone who is a car guy.

The one thing I have learned over the years is this; no one likes a DB, even if they own a Ferrari.

 

Funny thing is you can buy a ferrari for 25k or less(308gtsi). They are not hard to keep and if you can do your own maintanance inexpensive, lots of people here do just that. Now 25k may sound alot, but on the other hand it will always be worth 25k. My point is that if you really want a ferrari the only thing holding back is sheer will.

Alternatively a similar experience is to be had with a FIAT spider or alfa spyder for well under 10k, in fact even a used miata.

What irks me is people pontificating(not pointing fingers at you at all.) about the rights and worngs of sportscars, when thye dont own or drive a sportscar, and cost is little barrier, I mean you can buy a miata for 3k and use as a daily, hell you can even drive a gokart..

 

My 1969 TVR Vixen was my daily driver, the only car I owned for many years. I still have it 30+ years later.

 

If you go to Goodwood or Monterey, you can watch 250 GTOs, Jaguar C-Types, real Cobras, real Porsche 550 Spyders, RS60s, etc., competing on a real track, recently in the rain. Yes, it's expensive, but guys who can afford it actually do drive these cars. No one took the C-Type to get groceries back in the day anyway, so the notion that we need to build a cheap one to hit the 7-Eleven is ridiculous.

Absolutely, there is ego gratification in authentic cars as well. Hell, it takes hard work and/or smart investing to get the cash to buy some of these. Pretty soon people will be faking early 911s because those are getting expensive.

But, the owner of the real deal didn't rip off a brand or design to do it. In general, if you would be comfortable showing your car to a representative from the company that owns the design/branding, I'm all for it.

With that in mind, and because there are a lot of great reasons for creating replicas, what I would suggest is that the owners do the courtesy of submitting a photo of their creation and their contact information to Ferrari, Porsche, Jaguar, et al, and letting them know that they're performing a service for the marque. Once you've got that congratulatory/thank you note from Ferrari, threads like this are irrelevant.

Clearly Ferrari would be ecstatic that a fellow in a garage is making Testarossas and honoring the Ferrari factory. That's why replica owners should submit photos and contact info as above. No sense hiding in the garage if you're performing a service to the marque. At the very least they'd send wine and cheese.

 

+308

You don't need a replica of a $1M car to own and drive a sports car. I think I paid $3500 for my Fiat X1/9 back in the day and had a great time with it.

 

I wish you knew what you were talking about. At goodwood the racing in the rain was spectacular. 50% of the GT40 cars there were conterporary Gelescoe builds and one SPF.
The fact that new builds are allowed is well acceptted in europe, its also the reason the racing is so spectacular.

True its not cheap, a gelescoe car is going to cost close on $400k and you have to be able to afford to campaign it. But that is still avery different number than cracking up an 11mil GT40.

Actualy the 11 mill Gt40 is a joke, as the car burned to the ground after having its roof cut off during the filming of Lemans. Maybe the data plate survived and that is a maybe. So what you have is a 400k recreation with an 10million 600k dta plate attached to add provenance.

Point is what counts is whether the machine is a GT40, ie in design and execution, time of build is relevant to snobs and value, those who like to drive couldnt give a rats ass, as evidinced by the field at Goodwood. BTW Goodwood is the premier vintage car event and highly sleective, its also run by enthusiuasts who drive.

Same can be seen at the spa classic and any number of euro events. Additionaly to my knowledge gelescoe cars are not licensed by safir(who hold the Gt40 rights) but spf is, even thou an SPF car needs numerous minute changes to meet goodwood historic specs, like magnesium uprights instead of aluminum..

While the snobs pontificate from the clouds great racing is taking place and the hobby grows. BTW there have also been 4 J cars built recently and they raced at the lemans classic, yeah they were licensed. We also have numerous chevrons built by chevron latterly.

In fact there are whole fields of race cars recently cosntructed. The reason amongst other that they are accepted is because period builds are now too decrepid or too valuable to run in serious anger, and recreations make authentic great racing and spectacle. In fact the new builds are more authetic in terms of period spec than old builds which have been "developed" over the years and would not be admitted because of all the mods if they were new builds.

I also know of at least one family that runs a d type on the road, and Nick Mason famously took his kids to school in his GTO. Lots of people(relatively speaking) now run Lynx jaguar xkss's and these are well accepted as are Dutton Bugattis. These cars were used on the road in period, and still are.

Whats cool is that these old designs can be resurected and enjoyed on the road and track. In fact its only in the late 60's that race cars became non streetable, untill then there were plently of dual use machines. The people who run recreations are more authentic in that they use the machines as intended, whereas the precious valauble period builds are display races/run or kept in meuseums.

What is cool is that there is a whole sport of vinatge racing out there, kept alive and growing through recreations. A recreation is a long way from a plastic fascimilie/kit car.

True Ferrari shut down favre, but they have not shut down any number of other shops such as allegreti who build recreatiosn today. They do shut down people who make plastic MR2's with ferrari logos.

Aston and Jag seem to like the recreations, they dont play licese games, there have been a number of DB4zagatis built and a fair number of lynx jaguars, these have added to brand desireability and mistique.

That ferrari brands pens and theme parks seems to me debasing, but hey its their brand/greed. They also dont shut down wealthy collectors who comisiion a recreation. What I see is that they stop perople making counterfiet bogus cars which brear no relation to a ferrari but have enblems on, and here they are right, it can only debase the brand just as a RR radiator on a beetle is wrong.

Porche also has not done crap to chuck beck, and porche people seem to love the beck 906.

Fact is people who build any manner of kit cars in their homes are true gearhead enthusiasts, mostly into the machine for iteself. People who comission recreations may not be billionaire collectors(or they may be) but they are the authentic enthusiast more interested in using the machine as designed, than in hoarding and showing.

Yeah there is a minority who put badges on a plastic fascimily and pretend its "real" at cars and coffees, that is sad, but no less sad than someone who wrote a cheque for their new ferrari so they could tool around town in auto mode displaying wealth.

Frankly I say bring it on, the more and better recreations we have, the healthier and more vibrant the whole old car hobby will be. We are lucky that there are still legislative loopholes that allow these recreations to be built and registered and that we are now all forced into modern blandmobiles.

I am guessing that the number of people building a "cheap" ctype to go to the 7/11 is virtualy non existant.

 

The Gelscoe cars are made under license from Harley Cluxton and his Mirage race cars company.