458's successor engine speculation

the mid-engine series starting with the 308 has always been a V8. Hard to imagine a six cylinder IMVHO.

308, 328, 348, F355, 360, F430 & 458.

 

It has been confirmed by various sources (dealership and Maranello) that the 458 replacement engine will be somehow based on the new California. I think we all know and there is no more doubt about the fact that the Cali will have a turbo charged V8......

There are also various articles online where LDM hints at the fact that the 458 replacement's engine will be a V8 turbo charged.

 

IMO there is room for one last expansion of size on the NA V8
We may see 4.9-5.2 Liter V-8 putting out 620 or more HP
Porsche have a GT3RS in the pipe line that will crank 9k rpm
and put out 500 HP So why can't Ferrari do similar or more
In terms of specific output per liter ?

 

How do you know?

I've read reports Ferrari is testing v6 engines for the 458 replacement. And Porsche is testing 2.0 L 4 cyl engines for 911.

After the 458 ancester Dino was a 6 cyl and early 911 started as 2.0L.

These engeines are lighter. Andmore fuel efficient.

And they are considering using the technology for the Laferrari and 918 to trickle down to the 458 and 911. The instant torque of the electric motor plus the power from gasoline engine +turbo.

Plus, USA gas mileage requirements are getting much more strict. Ferrari cant be making 12mpg cars all the time. Turbo + electric power gives you both low end and high end power and good gas mileage.

Manufacturers like Cadillac, Mercedes and many others are all embracing turbos.

A Ferrari with V6 twin turbo plus instant electric power is far more desireable IMHO. A small Laferrari. A P1 is 3.8 V8 TT+ electric.

Porsche has stated the 918 will contain the DNA and technology for all future Porsches, that's a strong hint they are going hybrid in the future 911s, Cayenne etc .

 

Anything is possible, but I think the main issue is between turbocharged and NA V8s. Maybe in 20 years there will be a V6 but a change from NA V8 to TT V6 would be too much for customers to swallow in one gulp...IMO.

 

I agree. I think it could be turbo charged but I just don't think its likely. It could be still based on some of the forthcoming CA's motor. Perhaps they will have some sharing of parts. People on the inside often only get bits and pieces of a story and then try to make sense out of it.

 

How do I know? Because people on buy 458's would be turned off by a v6 twin turbo. Especially when their competitor, Mclaren used a v8 twin turbo and Lamborghini has a v10. Those cars in Cadillac etc that uses v6 turbos are how much? Under 100k. You think people want to drop 300k on a v6 turbo from Ferrari? I know porsche has a v6 turbo but the 911 turbo is known for that. To take generations of N/A v8's and go to a v6 twin turbo would hurt Ferrari sales and the image.

 

I like your thoughts, why not a V6 TT with ERS-K/H, such a solution would be charming.

Reasons for arguing:
- maximum closure to the "royal league of racing" (Formula 1)
- uniqueness: clear differentiation against McLaren and Lamborghini
- consequent: golden rule in racing "lighter means faster"
- if a change then a complete change
- also with a V6, synergies with Maserati are ensured
- more cylinders are not always better, or why is the 458 not using a V12 engine?

And why always the comparison with the GT3 RS? The Porsche 911 flagship is the GT2 RS, also powered with a V6 turbo engine.

However, I also think that it will be a V8 turbo with a few additional features.

 

Bigger bore and stroke adds very little weight, also a 50 hp electric power boost is not very expensive, $60k Lexus sedan has it.

 

The "468" will have a TT V8 with ~650 hp. KERS or not depends on how far the development on batteries has come. You obviously cannot put massively expensive batteries and KERS tech in a car which is meant to stay at somewhat the same price level as the current 458.

LdM has said himself, from now on the V8's will be turbocharged and the V12's will be kept NA.

What I'm interested in is if the successor to the 458 will have a full carbon tub or not...

 

Considering the fact that their main rival produces carbon tub sportscars, it would be foolhardy of Ferrari not to seriously consider it for regular production vehicles.

 

I think that its always will be an aluminum chassis, they have invested massively in is material with alcoa

 

You caught my comment before I deleted it quickly!

A while back, they did say the regular series will be aluminum only for now, but seeing as the price of carbon fiber is coming down continuously and now the Alfa 4C has a carbon tub, I would imagine eventually a 458 level model will have a carbon tub. In one of those article I just saw, Ferrari did say carbon fiber is not ready for high volume production yet, but mention the year 2020 when it will be ready. So the 458 successor probably won't have a carbon tub, but the generation after that might.

Is Aluminum—Not Carbon Fiber—the Car Material of the Future? Ferrari Say Yes - Popular Mechanics

Ferrari prefers aluminum over carbon fiber - SAE International

FERRARI CEO: CARBON FIBER IS OVERRATED, FERRARI STICKS WITH ALUMINUM ? Drive Aluminum

Ferrari to Focus on Aluminum, Not Carbon Fiber Says CEO » AutoGuide.com News

 

Thanks for those links. I will definitively check them out.

I really think you're onto something with regards to material cost. CF is getting cheaper and there is also development into different constructions of CF such as carbotanium, and things like the T800(?) they used for the safety cell on LaF.

I see it in the same may as the future of KERS / electric vehicles. It all depends on the nanodevelopment which is required to increase efficiency and reduce weight, as well as the cost per unit coming down. There was a interesting piece on the future of battery units on Dr. Michio Kaku's program "Sci-Fi Science".

 

By the sounds of this article, it strongly appears a N/A will still be utilized. CAR interviews Ferrari's tech boss on 458 Speciale and beyond (2014) | Automotive & Motoring News | Car Magazine Online

Bottom of the article.

How much longer before emission regulations force Ferrari to stop using naturally aspirated engines?
We are developing a turbocharged V8 engine, but I don’t know when it will be ready to put in our cars. There are strong benefits to help cut fuel consumption and emissions, but downsizing and turbocharged is a very hard exercise if you want to retain the feeling of our naturally aspirated engines. The exercise is not finished, and I think we still have a lot of years with our naturally aspirated engines. Only if we attain from the turbo engine what we need will we adopt it, otherwise we will find other modifications to make to the naturally aspirated engines.

 

+1

 

I'll say it for the thousandth time...

It's 100% confirmed that the California successor we will see at Geneva is TT V8, a version of the Ferrari-developed engine used in the current QP V8. Check the "next california" thread.

Remember that the interview in question was carried out before the private presentation of the next California, where those details were disclosed.

 

You are welcome, those are just from quick searches.

Regarding CF, the manufacturing process is the main cost, not so much the material itself.

For all valid beneficial technologies, cost is the main factor. They would apply it when it fit the budget.

 

Yes the California successor is TT V8 for sure, but the California is a soft entry level GT, is ok to be turbocharged.

But for the main hardcore mid engine model (458 successor), I am sure they will keep it NA for as long as they can. It is really not possible to make a turbo engine feels and sounds like a NA engine.

 

I would reserve my judgement on the matter of FI/NA if I were you, it's amazing what they can do these days. And the next Cali will be a healthy bit more aggressive than the current car, more active aero etc. I would not call what's coming a "soft entry level gt". A soft entry level GT is something like an SL...

 

Soft entry level GT for a Ferrari

 

I only bet when I am 100% sure.... So Jeff are you ready to bet on the fact that the next 458 will be or not a turbo? ;-)

 

I think this is the nub of the issue. The gains in the Ferrari fleet fuel economy and emissions from a TT California may be enough to allow keeping the NA engine in other models, at least for some years. So it may be perfectly reasonable for Ferrari to market a a TT California while planning the 458 replacement with a normally aspirated engine. We will see.

 

Since we are all speculating, I will say that I am confident the 458 replacement will be n/a. Let's remind ourselves that the replacement will be the evolutionary one and not a complete change. The replacement will have significantly more hp (650-700) and that will be achieved by a slightly larger displacement with even more hp/litre. How they will manage that, I don't know, but people who they pay very highly will figure this out. It is still a long time before this replacement sees the light of day.

 

The hp per liter output of the current 458 Speciale is 135. Thus a 650-700hp NA powerplant would constitute a 4.8-5.1 liter engine, given that the hp/liter output isn't improved over what it is today. Is it technically feasible to have a RELIABLE naturally aspirated road going engine pushing closer to 140-150hp/liter?

I'm still pretty certain the 458's successor will be turbocharged...