I would love Alonso to go back there, just so we can know what cheating things McLaren are up to again !
In all forms of racing, if you are not taking every advantage you can find then you are not trying hard enough, and probably not winning either as everyone else is sure to be bending the rules where they think they can get away with it too. >8^) ER
Having the full current technical documents for another team, spreading it around the the whole company to study and develop from is a little more than bending the rules.
Yeah - that was awfully inappropriate for McLaren but apparently a-okay for Renault. I am not advocating similar espionage, but rules were made to be broken and advantages meant to be gained. >8^) ER
Are you justifying what Mclaren have been proven to have done by saying others did it also? If Mclaren had had no punishment, they would still be a bunch cheats, and no matter what you say or think, that's a fact.
No - I give no justification for that at all, and I was just as disappointed in the actions of McLaren as the fan of any other team would have been when that occurred. I do consider it odd and noteworthy that one team can be found in breach of the same regulation under similar circumstances and receive no penalty when McLaren received what by all accounts was a massive one. Anyway - we don't need to rehash something that occurred over 6 years ago. We agree that it was not McLaren's finest hour - it probably cost Ron his chance at Knighthood too, so he has personally suffered if that is what some of you would be hoping for. Also found a funny image. Poor Ron gets such a bad reputation for his desire to be the best. >8^) ER Image Unavailable, Please Login
Alonso is plenty good at the cheating things without McLaren - don't forget that the FIA inquiry in 2007 had Alonso testifying that he knew of and used the stolen Ferrari data, whereas Dennis was found to have not known about the stolen Ferrari data. Alonso is widely suspected of being involved in the 2009 Renault Crashgate scandal, only an idiot driver wouldn't question a planned pit stop on lap 11, and Alonso is no idiot. As you say, proven and factual, Alonso was part of the cheaters at McLaren, by his own testimony. Since it was proven that Dennis didn't know of the cheating, that makes Alonso a bigger cheater than Dennis. Recall that Alonso is at Ferrari now. Also a proven cheater and thief was Stepney, a Ferrari employee. Do you also brand Ferrari a bunch of cheaters forever?
And plenty of people thought the 2013 McLaren was going to be the car to beat based on their 2012 car! You simply cannot make these sort of statements as if they are fact! - It's merely wishful/hopeful thinking on your part! There's all this talk about what a great and dominating F1 engine builder Honda are, but they didn't exactly dominate in their last F1 effort did they? "Ah! - But they'll have turbo's again this time!" you'll say! - And all of the other engine manufacturers will have a full seasons head start when it comes to on track/in race engine data! I wouldn't go handing the 2015 WDC and WCC titles to McLaren and their drivers just yet if I were you! - There's still a long way to go! (The 2014 season for a start off!)
Why does it look like with every photo of Ron he looks like he has permanent constipation? Ron... eat more fruit, would you? My feeling is that of all the teams that have the best chance for a comeback next year, it's Mac.
Sorry he looks like that's PAINFUL for him to do! In his head he's saying "Can we bloody hell stop this now!"
not at hand, but I remember reading in F-1 magazine about Mb and Ron issues... while I'd like to like to provide you your citation ... but dont have time to look for it... if you dont believe it - ok by me.
I left you hanging on your good debate, but I don't consider it a good debate when we're both arguing based on speculation and not hard facts. Even if you read something in a magazine with the quality of journalism being what it is today, they are often rife with speculation - surely McLaren being a private company the inner workings of the Board and Executive team are not open for all to examine. I'll maintain that the timelines don't line up for your claim - if a 40% stake holder in a company wanted the CEO ousted it would usually happen, and quickly. They don't wind it down over two years, just no way. Also, once Mercedes was out of the picture Ron could have moved right back in had it been their insistence that ousted him, and of course he did not. If you disagree, that's fine. Also MBZ money did not pay for the McLaren Production Centre. That was built using a loan secured by the McLaren Group through HSBC in 2010 (again, after the MBZ divestiture was already in progress) for £40M. McLaren accelerates into debt to build new 'super-car' factory - Business News - Business - The Independent If you are referring to the Technology Centre instead, the build of that goes back to a time when yes, there was a far stronger relationship between the pair of companies and Mercedes needed a place to have the SLR assembled. The investment there made a lot of sense for them at the time with McLaren also being their primary Formula One partner and I won't disagree that McLaren benefited quite significantly from that. >8^) ER
Totally agree with you, Alonso and McLaren deserve each other in my book. I have no doubt Ferrari have knowingly done things outside of the rules in F1, but what Mclaren did was on a level which really should have had them kicked out F1 in my opinion. The reason they were not kicked out was due the FIA not wanting to make 500 people unemployed.
Well in that case Renault should have been booted out as well. Kicked out !!! Get it into perspective, disgruntled Ferrari employees fed information to Mclaren employees, it happens, < lets not forget the white powder in the fuel episode as well!!!. Renault had Mclaren data on disks for over 6 months proven, Mosley fined Mclaren 100 million !!!!!! Renault got a slapped wrist. Trade secrets and information being passed around from team to team is all part of it, always has been always will be, face it engineers move from team to team the info goes with them, like it or not. A 100 million was a ridiculous fine, and the fact Renault got away scott free for the same thing proves that. Mosley hated Dennis, he made it personal.
Ah, the infamous spygate. It was 7 years ago, maybe we should agree to disagree and let it go, but oh, well, here we go again. When we talk about this I always remember that back then Jean Todt said something like "this could have been solved with an apology, but now it´s too late". With an apology I suppose that Todt meant an economic compensation; some years before, someone of Ferrari left to Toyota with some confidential data and both parties agreed to solve the problem in a discreet and friendly (although I guess not free) manner. So about the McLaren spionage, I suppose that maybe it was not only the issue, but how the issue was managed. Throw into the mix two crazy bastards like Max Mosley and Ron Dennis and you have the perfect 100 million $ storm.
Thanks. Ron was going through a number of things at the time. A dissolving marriage and guiding McLaren in becoming a (small) volume manufacturer of road cars alone would be sufficient reason to hand over F1 responsibilities. In F1 even back stories have back stories so I don't dismiss your scenario out of hand but absent proof I'll maintain my doubts. Nothing personal. All's good.
Ok, let me put it another way if you think what they did was no big deal. If McLaren and Alonso had won the titles that year, would you feel that it was fine and fair knowing that they had the full technical info and were using it at every level of the team they were battling with? 100 million in my view was clearly not nearly enough, as the fine has shown barely any impact, Ham won the title the following year for example.
You have to admit though that there is a difference between an engineer taking his own limited information with him to another team when he joins them, and being supplied with a 780 page dossier of another teams current confidential information, knowing full well that you should not have it in your possession, and then making use of the information it contains to: 1) Contest an aspect of your rivals car to the FIA. 2) Improve your own car by using "certain systems" derived from Ferrari designs. As I recall things, initially, McLaren were found to have had the Ferrari information (illegally), but there was no punishment given out because McLaren stated that they had not used any of the information contained in the dossier and that it was a very limited number of employee's who had access to the information, so the FIA decided to give them benefit of the doubt. McLaren were warned that if it later transpired that they had used the information in any way then they would be severely punished. It was later found that McLaren had used some of the information in the dossier, had used Ferrari designs to improve their car and had not been honest about just how many McLaren employee's had had access to the information and so the FIA punished McLaren for lying to them. It was slightly more than Mosley simply punishing McLaren because he hated Dennis! As for the Renault situation, although they were found guilty of having McLaren data and drawings, it was deemed by the FIA that the information was old, previous seasons information that an engineer had brought with him to Renault from McLaren (although it was shown that he taken more than just his own information from McLaren!), and was either of no use any more or the team had made no use of it/were unable to make any use of it. You're trying to claim that McLaren were treated completely differently to Renault but the difference between the two teams was that with Renault, when they received the McLaren information it was no longer current as it related to the previous seasons car, and it was not proved that Renault had used it. With McLaren on the other hand, when they received the Ferrari information it related to the car that Ferrari were still in the process of contesting the season with along with their current (at the time), race tactics, and it was proven that they had used the information. Had McLaren been more honest about the situation, and had they not made use any of the information contained in the Ferrari dossier, then they would have had the same outcome of their case as Renault did: Guilty but no punishment. (As shown by the outcome of the first FIA hearing against McLaren). Having made big statements about being the only honest team in F1 and such as like, they were found to have lied to the FIA and paid the price for it! You've tried to over simplify what really happened but the reality is, as is the way with F1 and the FIA, it's not that simple.
In my book they did win it that year, something fishy went on and am not talking about my missus cooking, again under the table deal with yours truly, that rat Mosley IMO. So we don't have that problem do we.
How horrible of a team to prove that the rival's car was illegal and the rival team was cheating. (Ferrari sprung/hinged floor was 100% definitively illegal, and was used on the car that won Australia 2007, Ferrari was cheating but didn't even get a slap on the wrist - was just told by the FIA "that sprung floor better not be on the car at the next race").
I've said it before and I'll say it again: In order to be deemed legal to race, the floor of the car had to pass an official FIA test: Did Ferrari's floor ever fail any of the FIA's official tests? - No, it did not. It passed the test required of it and so it was legal to race. Due to the suspicions about Ferrari's floor flexing, the official test was made tougher and Ferrari ensured that it's floor passed that test too! At which point was the Ferrari floor declared illegal - because I must have missed that one! Show Me an official FIA link/article that declares Ferrari's floor in Australia illegal! Cheating? - It was a clever engineering solution to what the rules required in relation to the test - In F1 it's called "Thinking outside the box!". I suspect quite a few of the other designers at teams who got upset about it were secretly thinking at the time: "Actually, that's quite a clever design!"
