Another Diff Bites The Dust… | FerrariChat

Another Diff Bites The Dust…

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by RQtetto, Jan 18, 2014.

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  1. RQtetto

    RQtetto Karting

    Aug 15, 2012
    146
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Robert Quisenberry
    #1 RQtetto, Jan 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    First the good news: my 1988 Testarossa won first place (in the 12 cylinder Ferrari category) at the 2013 Bella Italia Concours d’Elegance in San Diego, California.

    Then the bad news: soon thereafter my differential exploded.

    I thought this would never happen to me. Before I bought my car I was aware of this potential problem as I had been reading the entries here on F-Chat. I steered clear of any TR that had been tracked or raced. I examined the repair records of any potential candidate, looking for signs of a hard life or abuse. My car had just a few owners and lived a pampered life.

    It had only 20,503 miles on the odometer when I bought it and it had been maintained by the dealer for the last ten plus years. He even worked on it personally and vouched for it as a solid example, both mechanically and aesthetically. I felt confident that I had found an exceptional TR and drove it home.

    Owning a Ferrari is the fulfillment of a boyhood dream, and I give mine the red carpet treatment. I always do a low speed lap around the neighborhood in first gear to warm up the gearbox before attempting second gear. I still have no problems with the second gear synchromesh. I never rush the up-shifts and make sure the lever is in the gate before releasing the clutch. I always match RPMs for downshifts and don’t slip the clutch. No burn-outs or power slides. Everything is nice and smooth until one day….

    I was taking a friend along for a drive when it happened. We were cruising along at about 30 to 40 mph when I noticed the clutch felt a little odd stating off from a stop light. No bangs or clunks or other noises. We drove along normally for a few more miles and I dropped off my friend when I noticed in my rearview mirror that the heat waves coming off the rear deck had some density to them. It looked like light smoke. I figured some fluid from cleaning the engine had gotten onto the exhaust and was cooking off. All gauges were normal. No indication of elevated oil or coolant temps. No trouble lights on the dash. I was almost home so I kept on going.

    I made it onto my street and was rolling along at less than 5 mph when I noticed a cloud of white smoke coming off the engine. Now I heard noises for the first time: loud groans from the rear as I turned the wheel. I had enough momentum to roll onto my driveway and immediately shut off the car. Fluid was pouring out from the engine bay like a waterfall. At first I thought it might be coolant since there was so much pouring out onto the driveway. The puddle was growing larger by the second. Testing it with my finger I realized that it was some kind of oil and the odor indicated gear oil. Following the drip trail I saw that it began just a few hundred feet from my driveway down the street.

    The oil was leaking from the bottom rear of the engine somewhere and dripping onto the cats and exhaust pipes, which explained the smoke. A quick call and some emailed pix to the shop confirmed that the car would need to be towed. I hoped it was something simple and easy to repair, like a loose transmission filler plug. It wasn’t.

    The mechanic tried to pull the diff casing off to examine the interior but it wouldn’t budge. Something was locking it in place. We would later discover that the outer bearing was demolished and that was jamming the cover, preventing it from being removed. The entire engine sub-frame, including the engine, gearbox, differential, rear wheels and suspension, would have to be removed just to diagnose the problem.

    The casing was removed and the damage was severe. The welds at the top of the differential ring gear holder, which connected the end plate to the cylinder of the differential body had failed and the end plate was forced out toward the rear wheel with explosive force. The outer bearing race was in pieces and the roller bearings were smashed and distorted like melted tootsie rolls. The bearing cage was torn and twisted. These broken parts were forced into the aluminum casing like a battering ram and cracked it into three big pieces, releasing all the differential oil.

    Luckily this happened when the car was being driven at relatively low speeds. The damage was limited to the drivers side of the differential and the gearbox was completely unharmed. If the diff had blown at high speed the shrapnel could have penetrated the gearbox casing and even the engine itself. It could have been much worse.

    A little good news emerged from the gloom; the pinion and ring gear were completely undamaged and could be re-used. Now all I needed was a new diff ring gear carrier. The factory unit for the 512TR (which they wisely redesigned to eliminate the welded end plate) would fit my TR and cost about $6K. I opted for an identical spec aftermarket part for half the price from Forza Motorsports in England. Phil Worrell from Forza was very helpful with technical info and gave the mechanics detailed guidance on how to set up and shim the assembled diff. His part is a one piece cylinder open at one end and CNC machined from high strength billet steel. No welds anywhere. It’s rated for up to 1,000 HP and comes with a lifetime guarantee. Since the TR develops just 390HP I don’t expect any problems.

    While the engine was out we did the timing belt service and replaced a few seals and gaskets as well. I was allowed to hang around in the shop with the mechanics when they worked overtime and so I completely cleaned and detailed all the mechanicals and the engine bay. It was a unique opportunity to access all those usually inaccessible surfaces. When the engine went back in the engine bay it was in showroom condition.
    Was the failure related to harsh treatment from a previous owner? I have no idea how the car was treated before I got it. I know that I treat it with great care. It gets driven fast at times but I don’t abuse it. I drive with mechanical sympathy and am able to get impressive mileage out of clutches and gearboxes.

    One thing that is clear to me is that welding the end plate onto the cylindrical housing of the diff is just a bad idea. The diff casing contains shims and plates that place powerful tension forces on the ends of the diff carrier. Welding on the end plate is just asking for trouble, and the factory probably realized that early on. If the welds themselves don’t break, the metal near the welds , in the heat-affected zone, can. There were probably enough failures under warranty to trigger the redesign. Otherwise the 512TR and 512M would be using the same old welded design. There would be no reason to change it if it worked just fine. Obviously it didn’t work and Ferrari fixed it for the later models. This is a design flaw and a ticking time bomb for TR owners.
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  2. rpissm

    rpissm Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2013
    1,620
    Salt Lake City, UT
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    Joe
    Wow! Thank goodness you weren't going fast or else major damage! What was the final bill? And was the new diff the 'Modena' units mentioned elsewhere on the site?

    Joe

    Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
     
  3. RQtetto

    RQtetto Karting

    Aug 15, 2012
    146
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Robert Quisenberry
    What was the final bill?

    I used the Forza Components carrier. The price was just under $3,100, including S&H. The part is sold in UK pounds and the cost varies according to the exchange rate. Total bill was $16,650, which includes the carrier and all the other parts & labor. I had the timing belt service done as well as some other improvements.
     
  4. testarob

    testarob F1 Rookie

    May 13, 2006
    2,504
    Debary, Florida
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    Rob
  5. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,912
    southwest germany and thailand
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    romano schwabel
    welcome to the club of the broken diff owners :)

    as Mel has written in an other diff thread:

    it is not a question if the diff will break, it is only the question when
     
  6. tvu

    tvu Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 13, 2004
    1,310
    Southern California
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    Trieu
    Ouch - sorry to hear that Robert. Though it did cost you a pretty penny, now it's one less you thing have to worry about. Thanks for sharing the painful experience. Hopefully just happy miles ahead.
     
  7. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,110
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    Very sorry to hear about your bad-luck with the gb !

    If you don't mind, I will include your posting in my Gearbox Problem story as another example.

    But now, your gb is bullit-proof and will never die again !

    If ever to be sold, this is a very strong argument for a higher pricing!

    Let's Roll ! (again) :)
     
  8. kerrywittig

    kerrywittig Formula 3
    BANNED

    Nov 10, 2005
    1,668
    Ithaca, New York
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    Kerry David Wittig
    #8 kerrywittig, Jan 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    WOW, what a bill! I replaced my diff with a one piece after I had a belt break and had to replace 24 valves....also expensive.

    As mentioned previously, it's not if it will break,,,it's when....That goes not only for the diff, but also the vaccum boost impeller shaft!!

    Been there, replaced that, got the receipts ME
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  9. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    So sorry Robert, Good luck with the repair.
     
  10. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
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    The Meister
    So who has begun to replace the diff as "preventative" maintenance rather than waiting until the big bang?

    And is there any cost saving to doing it that way or is it pretty much the same?
     
  11. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,912
    southwest germany and thailand
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    romano schwabel
    those shafts only brake because the pumps are mounted wrong. the oil drain hole has to be on the bottom, not on the side. I once have written here in this forum how I did it, but can not find anymore :(
    I put the pump so in that the drain hole shows to the bottom. on the top I put a 90 ° angle where I put the vaccuum hose on. the problem is when the hole shows to the side: the complete oil can not drain back. so in this pump there is always some oil. if this is too much the shaft will break because of the high oil presure in the pump.

    if anyone can find my post please put a link in here.
     
  12. okiedude

    okiedude Formula 3

    Jul 11, 2011
    1,013
    Remulak
    Full Name:
    Blake
    Good question.
     
  13. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,774
    +1

    I guess every piece that's not broken is a chance for a part not purchased.

    Labor - less fishing for debris and cleaning.
     
  14. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran
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    Jan 11, 2012
    6,274
    Papineauville, Quebec
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    Claude Laforest
    I personally have placed my order with Newman for my new diff and the car is not even here yet. I prefer $3200 for a unbroken replacement than a huge bill of parts after it break.
    I go preventive!
     
  15. RQtetto

    RQtetto Karting

    Aug 15, 2012
    146
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Robert Quisenberry
    Good idea. I got lucky and had no collateral damage in the gearbox or engine. Good thing it didn't happen at speed on the freeway.
     
  16. RQtetto

    RQtetto Karting

    Aug 15, 2012
    146
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Robert Quisenberry
    Yeah, I remember reading your post before I bought the car and thinking "Boy, I hope that never happens to me."

    Bottom line is that the car now runs better than ever and I shouldn't be looking at another engine out service for a few years. Maybe by then I'll be able to fix it myself. :)
     
  17. RQtetto

    RQtetto Karting

    Aug 15, 2012
    146
    SoCal
    Full Name:
    Robert Quisenberry
    Sure, add me to your list. Maybe someday Ferrari will have pity on us and reimburse us all for these diff repairs! It would be great PR, showing support for their legacy models.
     
  18. Meister

    Meister F1 Veteran
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    Apr 27, 2001
    5,516
    Duluth, MN
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    The Meister
    The reason I ask is in july I decided to move on from my 308 and get into a 348 or possibly TR. But threads like this clearly show that in reality my comfort level for potenial bills like this is not there.

    I thought I read in another thread that if the diff has not yet grenaded it can be pulled and repaired without dropping hte engine assembly. And as such I would assume that would be much less costly..??
     
  19. Todd308TR

    Todd308TR F1 World Champ

    Nov 25, 2010
    11,071
    LA
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    Todd
    Glad to hear this wasn't as bad as others, and that you're back on the road! I plan to own a TR some day and have concluded that the diff we be replaced first thing.
     
  20. turbo-joe

    turbo-joe F1 Veteran

    Apr 6, 2008
    8,912
    southwest germany and thailand
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    romano schwabel

    sure you can do only this diff changing job with the engine inside the car. but hard to reach all.
    so better to take the engine out and just do a major service then. after this you may drive a couple of years before talking out again
     
  21. tr512

    tr512 Formula 3

    Apr 12, 2007
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    Michael
    I did mine in the car.It wasnt that hard at all.
     
  22. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,774
    V-Cool! How did you support the drive-train w/o that rear lo'r clutch housing/engine mount casting that goes across the car?
     
  23. tr512

    tr512 Formula 3

    Apr 12, 2007
    1,600
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    Michael
    A jack holding the motor up.
     
  24. 2dinos

    2dinos F1 Rookie

    Jan 13, 2007
    2,774
    That's great to know. I'm in that group who just did a full EO service, and am not thrilled with pulling it out so soon.

    I was thinking I could get the alignment checked with the original by using a height gage. Then when the ring gear is in the same relative position, it should be set. Works perfect on paper :)
     
  25. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,110
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    Michael, can you please give the felllows here some hints ? Pics .. ?

    They still hessitate because they don't feel comfortable to perform this themselves ...
     

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