Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Top gear track time bets?

Mine: generic "less than 1:10" announced without showing the clip with Clarkson going "oh, the video has broken!"

 

<playing along> I don't know your buddy quite as well as I do the 'buddies' who shared McLaren's best result with me. I would hope yours was telling the truth - I certainly know my sources were. </playing along>

Also be careful with those kinds of jokes - Jalopnik might take that quote and write an article on it.

I, along with most people, have a fairly good feeling Ferrari aren't even interested in this silly game. Since they haven't mentioned the LaFerrari and the Ring once in the same sentence yet that I can confirm, they will never be crucified for the lack of a published time here.

If weather cooperates I expect it to be in range of the Zonda R given what we've already seen the P1 do around there in the videos of customer drives. So you don't have to look it up, it did a 1:08.5 - P1 will be a little slower I might guess.

>8^)
ER

 

^ do you think faster than Fxx's 1:10.7 with Michael at the wheel?

This could be the first indirect comparison between P1 and LaF considering the Fxx's times at the TGT and at Fiorano

Shame it's Top Gear we're talking about ...

Ferrari's times are quite proportionate between the two tracks, while the mp4-12 has never been so much faster than the Italia on any other tests.

 

Actually I failed to consider that Top Gear laps are always done with a standing start, so on that account my time might be too optimistic.

For reference though, I am using customer laps with two-up, some amount of fuel, and a driver who isn't at 10/10ths which have been recorded in the 1:11 to 1:12 time frame already, so the car has more to give under 'test conditions'.

>8^)
ER

 

Those are loud fighting words Napolis. What do you mean by a disaster? I understand that they have sold out their total of 375 production units. Try as I may, I've failed to come up with any significant negative commentary towards McLaren not officially announcing their Nurburgring lap time, save for the obvious critiques about it from this forum. It seems to me that neither Ferrari nor McLaren are in the slightest bit interested (or bothered) about letting the public know what times they've achieved specifically on the Ring and credit to them. I can only see it sparking off another war similar to the top speed battles of fairly recent times, pointless I may add. I for one do not wish to see a high risk time set at such an unforgiving track, merely to please the blood thirsty fans of these new age hypercars. If they are set up as highly tuned race cars for this specific track, then by all means let a race car driver attempt it if he wishes. I would rather see professional drivers testing the limits of these cars on a safe track, knowing that they'll be sitting down afterwards over a drink to discuss it. Also, I fully believe that they will not have issues with releasing official fast lap times on any other safe tracks around the world. I can't wait to see them duel it out in comparable conditions on these types of tracks where I know that it's more dependent upon the car's capabilities rather than the size of the driver's huevos.
Again, what do you mean by a disaster? In my book, a disaster is the correct word to use if a serious accident involving a life threatening incident had occured in any of these three hypercars as a consequence of an overzealous attempt at a fastest ever production car Ring laptime. I'm pleased that we have three incredible vehicles on offer at pretty much the same point in history that all move the game forward. To literally call a PR boast a disaster is fairly ridiculous and short sighted in my opinion. McLaren or any other supercar company would not employ untalented people for such important roles and I would imagine that their communication plans are much more well thought out than any of us could imagine.

 

Post of the year.

 

What a strange post .

I will not ask why you are even here on an enthusiasts forum with that logic regarding the ring . The ring is long established benchmark , a gauntlet thrown down by Dennis himself ( not some nameless technician ). When they spent all those days at the ring wasn't it dangerous ? By that logic the cars need to be outlawed , if any racetrack ( with no traffic , marshals , barriers etc ) is too dangerous what chance do civilians have on our roads ? For God sake , think of the children , lol . Ridiculous .

Let me remind you , that when sport auto took the 12 c to the ring mclaren didn't come up in arms and mention anything about danger . Instead they made a celebratory video!

When top gear did the same at their "track" mclaren actually baked a cake in celebration .

Now after not being able to show a video and prove a time at the ring , the ring is magically dangerous and proving a time is a bad thing ?

Too funny , to quote Napoils ; it's a disaster .

 

Both you guys seem slow to realize something. I said test them for fast laps on a safe track. A true professional driver would most likely scoff at your thoughts here. If you knew about racing you would know the importance today put on runoffs and other safety features. Do you disagree with Lauda or the reason to discontinue Formula 1 racing on the Ring? And if the Ring time is important for you, I ask why. Do you think you could wring any of these cars out for all they're worth in the eventual case that it would be your determining factor for deciding which one to buy?

 

Napoils has raced the ring many times ( I believe he beat the mclarens last time out ) along with literally hundreds of pros , I've been there more times than you can count. There are so many races there a year from vln to classics that barely have a rollcage ( my rsr for example ) . The ring is not a murderous , extinct dinosaur it's in use almost daily so I'm afraid I must retort that perhaps you are the one that needs to know more about racing not I .

If it offends your sensibilities please talk to Ron Dennis , it was he who said they would conquer there , he sent the p1 there for weeks of testing , he sent the 12c there for a lap time . Talk to mclaren it is they who race 12c's there ( with professional drivers , shock horror ).
Tell him to think of the children .
F1 is irrelevant , they are exercises in aerodynamics they would be no good there I agree .

Like it or not the ring best represents a normal road , that's why dozens of manufacturers test there and not at silver stone . I agree other times would be interesting but it could be argued they would be much less relevant . Again I remind you , no one held a gun to Ron's head when he made those bold claims .
I bought the 918 as a ROAD car not a car that only works on a flat gp surface with " run offs".


The ring is relevant but the times would not influence my purchase ( and they didn't )that much I'll concede .

 

What's the current fastest lap for a road-car? Is it the Huayra?

 

Any ETA yet on your 918?

 

Yep.

1:13.8 in season 19, episode 1.

 

Is that the controversial lap where the car (apparently) used slicks?

 

Yep.

Did The Pagani Huayra Cheat To Set Its Record Lap Time On Top Gear? (UPDATED: Pagani Responds)

 

I asked for a Christmas delivery , I'm due back in eu then . Can't wait !

 

First of all, while F1 is no longer runs there serious racing is still done at the ring. Those drivers are true professionals. The drivers that test at the ring for actual development purposes are also professionals. In the rare occurrence that a group test is done here a professional driver takes the helm then too. They recognize the danger, but race(or lap) anyway.

I'm not trying to trivialize the danger, but you are also under the mistaken impression that all of this comes from external pressures. No one is forced to do this, there are many opportunities to race and develop elsewhere. While the track is ideal for development in some cases the fact is that the drivers and the engineers want to be there. They have their own pride and personal motivations.

The real point, however, is that Mclaren did not actually take any actions to promote safety. Despite everything you and they have said about safety they still went to the track, they still took filming helicopters to the track,they still did lap after lap, and they still pushed their car to the limits on this "unsafe" track. And when it was all said and done they released a video that showed not only how incredibly awesome and fast their car looks while doing fast laps of the ring, but glorified the whole notion of embracing the challenge of going as fast as possible at such a dangerous track.

Releasing the time is by far the least dangerous part of the process. The video promotes everything both you and they moved to condemn. The only leg they had left to stand on was the idea that releasing a time might get others too push hard at the track or at least continue the dangerous tradition, but their video did far more to promote it than their time would have. And just to top it off they still claim sub - 7 minutes despite not giving an exact time so there goes the last leg.(thump)

 

Great post .

 

+1000

 

Wonderful posts Hobo Pie and Wtdoom, very informative if you want to call them that. I realize that those McLaren guys have their own professional drivers and that the Ring is still used for racing. But do you not understand the perils of one OEM announcing a proper fast time at the Ring and how that will stimulate another OEM to beat it? We're not talking out and out racing cars here, where crashes, injuries and even death are part of the deal of being a race car driver. Goading other companies to beat your time on a, I repeat, relatively unsafe track is irresponsible. I'm not complaining that Ferrari will probably never attempt or reveal a Ring time. The speeds these cars can achieve are incredible. And sure, McLaren probably went for broke on their quest for a fast lap as they well should have. Nobody questions that. They probably set one heckuva a time too. Will you not be satisfied as to which hypercar consistently beats its other competitors on any other track? Will any of the main three not be satisfied with the best time at Dunsfold or Silverstone, or perhaps the Gumball? You say that the Ring best reflects normal road conditions. Well if you're a 10/10ths driver on the road, be sure to let us all know your favorite flowers soon. I love max speed too, but only when I know that one slight goof up isn't going to send me to my maker. A road car is a road car, that's why they're road homologated.

 

quick question just to get me up to speed here: is the latest theory on p1 not breaking 7 mins , that it rides too low in max downforce set-up to use effectively at the NS?

In other words, when they pegged a sub 7 NS lap as their benchmark, they didnt realize it was a bumpy place that wouldnt allow them to use their biggest advantage?

 

Yes I think so

 

Mr furlong , setting a time at the ring wasn't irresponsible when the 12c beat the 458 , why is it now for mclaren ?
I am very satisfied actually .
For speed I will not be satisfied if one car beats all the others on flat gp style tracks or a runway , that simply means the car is faster on flat gp style tracks ( and a runway ). I fully expect the p1 to be shatteringly fast on flat gp style tracks ( plus flat runways ) I have said this from day one . I said it again when mclaren took me out in a p1 ( I was a depositor ) at Frankfurt and yet again after I drove one .

What you consistently forget or don't want to remember is no one told mr Dennis to make those claims .
To make those claims , then back out ( siting danger and irresponsibility as two of the reasons for doing so ) is just a joke .
Especially after you have revelled in the attention of the 12cs ring time .
Then to make silly insinuations and defacto demean others accomplishments is unsavoury at the very least and arguably churlish and childish to the extreme .

I am a motoring enthusiast , I want to see these things , I want to know and drive these things . That's it , very simple .

Finally I'd like to add that I am happy to discuss these vehicles with like minded enthusiasts , the disagreements are not personal and I see no need to take sly shots at those whom I converse with ( if I can call them that ).



???

 

Ferrari quoted a sub 7 time for the ring at their private preview for the F150. Nothing has been shown in public since then. I suppose they backed away from that goal, probably due to ride height.

Then why do it in the first place?

 

You can't claim that your a magician and then not show me any magic tricks!

 

Yes, but Ron Dennis didn't seem to give two ****s about that when he boasted about the P1's unproven laptime to journalists during its launch. Like others have said, doing the whole dance without actually releasing the time is just as bad. Depending on who you talk/listen to, numbers at this point are either simply a formality, or a very embarrassing secret. Honestly, I don't know who is right. And I don't care. I think the P1 is ugly as crap, sounds boring, and is simply not interesting enough as a car. Not that I have the money to buy one. But I would be impressed if it ran seriously lower than the 918. And I believe the potential might be there.

No, I don't think there's a problem in manufacturer's trying to beat each other's times on that track - road cars or not. Like I don't have a problem with the Pepsi test. It's marketing. Perils are a part of fast motoring, and those cars are made for fast motoring. There should be a benchmark, and there should be a competition between these guys. It's what they are making these cars for. They want a throne to claim. There's no point in trying to take a high road sort of argument - especially after all the BS McLaren have been spewing.

A part of me wishes McLaren had stopped with the F1. Then I would respect them forever as having been a company that set out to make one ultimate expression of a road car, and done so spectacularly. But I also have respect for them in the sense that they aim to grow and that to grow you must take risks. The 12C was a risky venture. It seems to have paid off, but not as well as it could have. The P1 seems to be going down a slightly better path, but far from being the ideal one. Blunders like this bring it down. The EVO piece and the cover of Autocar, among others, prove that the Nurburgring time is a shadow that looms over the P1's claim to the throne of World's Ultimate Hypercar. And make no mistake, this is a COLOSSAL mishandling in communications.

Of course, one must be practical about it - in reality, it matters close to nothing in the grand scheme of automotive things, what car laps the Nurburgring fastest. In fact, while some may sit here thinking the developments on these cars are what affect the cars in the real world, the reality is very much the opposite. It was the push for general eco-motoring that pressured these manufacturers into going with hybrid systems. The garden (saving) variety Prius has had a much greater effect on the planning of these hypercars than their KERS systems will have on future popular automobiles.

So in the end this is a massive PR mishandle, but not relevant for a big enough audience for it even to become a case study, as some have suggested. This isn't about selling these cars. McLaren have claimed they're sold out of P1's, even if they brought the production number down. Ferrari has claimed it has sold out the LaFerrari and if we know them well, they will produce more than they said they would. Porsche hasn't said anything about selling out the 918, but baing a part of the VW group they honestly do not have to. So it's not the potential buyers who feel particularly slighted. No, in the end, McLaren's antics make car enthusasts (not McLaren enthusiasts...) very angry, or very sad. Or both. Because that's what we want to see: who will win? We know which brand we hold closer to our hearts, all of us do. That's why it matters so much. We want our "team" to win. We want to get into stupid arguments at the Pub about RWD vs 4WD, Lightness vs. power, Aero vs. engine. McLaren is refusing to race, but claiming they won. People hate those kinds of people. They are dicks. But in the business world, being ****** rarely pays off. And when it does, there's only space for one. And in this case no brand will ever beat Ferrari. Which is why so many of us love them in the first place.