Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

i was comparing road cars, 911 vs. 12c. porsche severely lack innovation in their road cars. yes, once a decade they show up with a super car but how about the bread and butter. i mean the cayman is nice but.....

 

whats so special about the 12c? a clean sheet design that trumps every porsche and ferrari built to date
that idea just blows the mind if you stop and think about it. they are scrambling the competition and i LOVE IT

 

What exactly is so innovative about 12C? Besides the hydraulic suspension, zilch.

 

one could make the same argument about Zonda or Gumpert Apollo...

but the market sings a different song.

 

The high end race series they participated in they absolutely dominated, winning it seven times in a row and still remain the most successful manufacturer in that series...ever.

To think they shy away from F1 because they can't compete is VERY naive.

 

Agreed , veyron just the most awe inspiring machine .

I owned a 12c and sold it after 6000 miles it was a good car but certainly nothing game changing or likely to become a classic . I can name you several better and more significant Porsches than the 12c . I am not sure of your judging criteria .
Porsche chose gt and endurance racing historically and dominted both . These were more relevant to the "win on Sunday sell on. Monday " ethos at the time . When they developed the tag engines for f1 they were invincible ( ironically with mclaren). When the raced the 917s in the USA they actually retired mclaren from those series they were so dominant .
The 12 c still can't beat the car with the engine in the wrong place in racing . The 911 has won everything from Le Mans to the Dakar rally . My brumos rsr used to beat full blown prototypes in endurance racing , I could go on and on but my coffee is here now . F1 is not the be all and end all of the racing world . Porsche would never race ANY championship and suffer the drought in victory that mclaren has endured in f1 . Mclaren still can't build an engine . For someone who has raced cup cars and needs no introduction to Porsche you conveniently forget much .

Even that is not new technology . The 12c is impressive for a to b pace . For fun , interaction , throttle response , noise etc is merely acceptable .

 

To be just, a few years later they developed a heavy V12 pig called 3512 for Footwork, that was so bad the team reverted back to older car with Ford V8.

 

That engine was worth what footwork paid for it . Pay peanuts and you get monkeys mate
At least they can build an engine , lol

 

i cannot believe you would think a 12c is nothing special compared to a 911. to me its a whole different experience.
You think a 991 turbo is more special than a 12c?

 

I would never, EVER underestimate Porsche. For anything.

 

Actually Porsche paid 2/3 of the costs and Footwork the rest. It was as "factory official" as it could be but it seems that someone at Porsche underestimated the complexities of a modern F1 engine.

An interesting article:

Unfancy Footwork - Porsche's Epic 1991 F1 Fail

 

especially not the nurburgring

 

The Footwork effort fell short (oh so long ago), but does anyone here honestly think Porsche lacks the technical ability to develop a worthy F1 car if they threw their total effort into it?

They might not get it right from jump street, but in time I'm sure they would be as competitive as McLaren is now…..which isn't very to be truthful.

 

For a company as image-conscious as Porsche, the foray into F1 in its own name in 1991 was a humiliation. It didn't bring any PR upsides, but it brought all the downsides of being associated with outdated technology, lack of horsepower, unreliability, and ultimately failure. It is an episode in Porsche's history it would rather sweep to one side, and it was no surprise that Porsche turned its motorsport attentions back to the familiar territory of sports cars and has not really wanted to flirt with F1 again since.

 

That, and it is using full carbon tub on a 458 level car. Has unprecedented levels of refinement for a car with that performance. Outperforms pretty much anything from a factory up to at least 2x the price.

I love Ferrari and think the cars have a "soul" that is hard to match. But to pretend the 12C is not an outstanding and groundbreaking car for the price? you may not like the clinical way McLaren delivers the performance--but it does it at an almost price no object level. What unmodified Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, or other do you have to by to get by a 12c at most tracks? Do you not categorize unbelievable performance for the money using different technology as groundbreaking?

I am not saying a Scud for example is not more fun to drive on a typical drive on the streets--but if you want pace with refinement McLaren has really shown the world something with the 12c.

Not sure how you can say "zilch" on the McLaren. Sounds very agenda driven or at the very least biased to me....

 

THANK YOU, i needed that help. 'groundbreaking' is the right word. they've leapfrogged porsche andferrari. plain and simple.

 

if we go by that, than an Alfa 4C is more grounbreaking car than 12C?

Outperforms, but not by much. a 991 TTS, which is noticeably cheaper, is very close to 12C acceleration-wise. Same for NISMO GT-R.

i hate to break this to you... but a stock 991 GT3, as tested by both british and italian magazines(so no patriotic skewing) is FASTER than both 458 and 12C on track. That is a 475 hp car, that is no lighter than 12C and 458, has 100+ hp less, 2 cylinders less, and cost SIGNIFICANTLY less than either 12C or 458.
That car has also been met with universal praise, being elected (performance)car of the year by almost all relevant publications.

How 'bout that?

 

You really are dramatic ("zilch" "How about that" "i hate to break it to you") about this aren't you..

I hate to break it to you...but all those cars came out years after the 12C..McLaren raised the bar for those examples to meet.

4c was groundbreaking in Chasis for a non hyper exotic. Just not in the same performance category as these other cars...

 

If Porsche went into F1 full bore with a factory team the way they did Can Am and LMP1 there would be no question they would be successful. It is in their very nature to win.

They have no reason to be in F1 despite a brief flirtation, mostly for the same reasons other real manufacturers have threatened to leave including the most successful teams.

Again, lets see just how quickly they become relevant to lemans racing with their new super tech 919 and beyond. I'm guessing they won't go a decade with only a single win to show for it like Mclaren have in F1 and I'm sure they will do it with an engine they have produced themselves too.

 

i dont read car magazines much so please send me the articles, but there is no way on god's earth that a 991 gt3 is faster than a 458 or much less a 12c. a 991 gt3 is hardly faster than an m3.

 

Quattroruote(Italy) tested 991 GT3 on Balocco and find it beat both 12C and 458 on track.

Auto express(UK) ran a comparison test with a '13 spec 12C(625 hp) vs a 991 GT3. GT3 was faster on track and was more fun.

I don't have the relevent articles by me, sadly, but info can be found freely on the web.

 

Been busy this morning so I missed out on the great Porsche debate, but I just had to go back to this:

Hardly a fair wager because no one would miss you if you were gone.

>8^)
ER

 

I understand what you say but what do you think you are credible about acceleration with ss when you explain to us that ss is better for braking and especially in the corners. So, please, be a little serious. This is just laughable.

 

I'm not talking about acceleration tests on the track but if you do the test on real roads in the Middle East where there is sand, the motricity will be probably better with ss. These are special conditons that you don’t have on our roads. And it's the same thing if it is wet (even if P1 has an outstanding motricity). It’s easy to understand.
In this case your test is wrong.

 

Still waiting for an answer Kanu...

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142884983-post5826.html