458's successor engine speculation

LDM mentioned in the last (or the one before) Ferrari Magazine that they are planning to use their FF 4RM system on another car of the Group..... Could that be the California or something else based on the FF?

 

You do understand that F1 is imposing arbitrary displacement boost and fuel economy limits, right? Back in the 1980s and without those limits, F1 turbo cars made much more power than any NA engine since. Up to 1300 hp in qualifying trim. So without those kinds of limits, a turbo engine will work just fine.

 

If Ferrari abandons NA engines will the Turbo offering feel artificial? Just wondering. The thing I believe many Ferrari enthusiasts love about Fcars is the raw feeling one feels when driving the car. Will Ferrari lose some of it's soul with the Turbo? I'm not trying to be cynical, just want to know from the voices of experience out there.

 

It bears repeating. 288 GTO. F40. 2 of the most engaging Ferraris of all time to drive and both have stood the test of time.

 

I don't think anyone was concerned about that, I thought we were all just talking about the refinement of the new gen turbo system w the aid of ERS-type power units? To help finesse things like the turbo lag inherent in conventional tt cars that many folks have mentioned.

My caveat is that this refinement from F1 development most likely won't find it's way to road going cars until 5-10yrs down the road, and so the 458 successor probably won't learn anything from F1 in the immediate future. The California & upcoming 458 may just be the test bed. Who knows if it'll turn out amazing? I don't have a crystal ball but if it is anything like the conventional turbos currently on the market then it's going to disappoint many.

 

Maybe we should all test drive a 12C as it might offer a glimpse into how the replacement 458 might feel.
For me I can't wait for the Speciale next year.


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Thank you very much! That was very informative and I stand corrected. Still though, Remi says that there is a 1 sec lag even with this technology. Like you said, I don't see MGU-H happening anytime soon in road cars. They will be using two turbos instead (a small and a big one).

 

Engine power will be limited to 600 HP or so. The engines are going to be homologated in less than a month anyway. So, no dramatic increase in power for the next several years. That would be very hard at any rate, since there is a 100 kg/hour flow limit.

 

A Maserati coupe perhaps?

 

The same holds true for all types of F1 engines. The V10s got scrapped when they got too powerful for their own good (1000 HP) and the V8s were limited to 18.000 RPM and 750 HP. F1 is just restrictive nowadays.

 

An interesting guess. It could make marketing sense for Maserati to offer an all weather vehicle in its line up.

 

Interesting. Audi is having the same dilemma for the next R8. Use the same or improved version of the 5.2 V10 or move to the higher HP more efficient TT V8. The company already has a TTV8 that is used in the S8 which could be modified further to produce higher HP levels for the new R8. The faithful would prefer NA, as with the 458. Only time will tell.

 

There we're boost limits back in the '80's by the way.
Pete

 

Like rallying there is no torque limit, so they if they get the chance, will be torque monsters. I guess though Bernie will ensure they are just a little bit faster and then freeze them ... such a pity as there is real possibilities with this technology. Again just shows how silly and pointless F1 has become, thanks Bernie.
Pete

 

Well according to that guy on the forum here who finds all of Ferrari's patent applications, they have registered a patent for a new 4WD system, for use on a road car. So probably going to hear more of that in the coming years.

 

Actually you need to "thank" Max Mosely as it was his idea. Bernie hates the new turbo engines. Anyway, I reckon the F1 cars will be cosniderably slower than last year. By the way, there is no boost limit, but the fuel flow limit also limits boost to about 3.5 atm.
Renault reveals 2014 F1 engine - F1 Fanatic

Let me just say though that increasing power was not the reason behind the change of engines. If they wanted power, they would have stayed with the V10; by now they would be making 1300 HP if they were unlimited. It was all about going green and keeping speeds safe and sane.

 

For those who are vigorously bemoaning turbocharged engines, Do you have any significant time driving a late model turbo car, specifically a GTR, 991 Turbo, or MP4-12C? Car and Driver recently picked the 991 Turbo S over the 458:

Fluid and Fluent

You may subjectively prefer the feel or sound of a NA car, and that is fine, but from objective performance turbo engines are already here and at least the equal of NA engines. Give me a measurable, quantifiable aspect of performance where all of these modern turbo cars are inferior to the 4.5 liter v-8 in the 458?

And if you can't drive a car on and off boost (which is incredibly easy in these modern cars) fast on track, I am going to suggest you get some practice and lessons. The 930 and F40 boost curves are ancient history.

Anecdotally, my pinhead friend with a 458 and I switched cars and he did not realize my MP4-12C WAS a turbo until after I told him.

 

You should put that C&D "win" in context. They thought the 458 was the best car but dinged it for price.

I quote:

While it was capable of delivering race-car performance—the clear winner on the Reno-Fernley road course and a compelling thrill ride in the mountains—the Ferrari could also be civilized in routine driving, thanks to the brilliant electronic chassis and the powertrain adjustability provided by the five-position manettino switch set in the rim of the angular, carbon-fiber steering wheel.

The Ferrari’s real undoing, however, is its sticker. The base price—almost 230 large—is an eye-opener, particularly compared with the Porsche’s. But $40,865 worth of options—the list included a set of rather hard, Daytona-style seats and a tiny nav system, among many others—cost the Ferrari 13 points. And 13 points is how far it finished behind the Porsche.

Still, we can imagine guys looking at the Ferrari and thinking, “If only I had this car, my life would be complete.”

 

My point with the 991 was not so much that it is a better car than the 458, but that the turbo powertrain is certainly as good as the 458 from an OBJECTIVE performance standpoint. The fluff above is subjective. The 991 Turbo S beat the 458 to every speed and had a 4 mph advantage at the end of the quarter mile. On track, the 458 was .5 sec faster in a lap. So use the turbo powertrain in the 458 Chassis and the 458 should go even faster.

So I say balderdash to those who say modern turbo engines are lacking in terms of objective performance.

 

Yes that is always the reason for changing engines, but the other reason surely is to keep it relevant and interesting.

The v10's were great engines for that size but they would not have been ideal for the 2.4 ltr formula or now with only 1.6 ltrs.

I'm happy with these new engines and might even watch a few races to see. The only problem I have is this freezing of the designs/development. Silly, just silly.
Pete

 

Agreed- except--- no one buys these cars for objective reasons. Want to go real fast, there are so many better choices for less money. These cars are bought for much harder to quantify subjective reasons. That's why its so hard for someone else to duplicate Ferrari's success.

PS- I don't disagree with you- the turbos are great and amazing, but until proven otherwise, they aren't that exciting to me in a sports car. I think they are most welcome in a daily driver for all their benefits.

 

people fear change. i suspect switching to forced induction will push a few away from ferrari much like water cooled engines pushed folks away from porsche.

in the end, people just need to take a chill pill and wait and see. the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. i'd say the future is bright.

 

If Ferrari put their badge on the nose of the new FIAT 500 and marketed it as a 458 successor many on this site would happily buy it.

Those subjective reasons you are talking about are as thick as the badge for many. Even most magazine reporters seem to be in love with the marque and rave like a little school boy at their chance to drive a FERRARI!
Pete

 

I agree to some extent but suspect that Porsche's "objective #s" beating the 458 in a standing start drag race has more to do with the AWD system on the Porsche and its ability to get traction than a superior turbo charged power plant.

 

Problem with that theory is trap speed, which is much less traction dependent. 4 mph faster in the 991 is a big difference.