merak citroen brakes

I read of many horror stories about the Merak Citroen brake system, can it really be all that difficult.

Does it have a master cylinder, brake lines and wheel cylinders like regular brake systems have?

Is the only difference the "green" fluid?

Just curious.
thanks

 

do some research.

 

Thank you for the insight,,, what the heck do you think I am doing?

 

Jason, The Merak system is most likely like the Bora. Since I have never worked on a Merak I do not know for sure. I do know the Bora. The system is not all that complex but it is different than a standard brake hydraulic system. It is a little difficult to explain and I have typing but a lot has been discussed on this subject. Do a search on LHM or Bora breaks etc. I'm sure much will be explained. BTW you can also research the Citroen system because that's what it is. By search I mean begin on this forum. There is much information out there including places to buy parts much cheaper than the Maserati vendors. Just hunt.

 

Jason, you can do some on here with the search function. It's been discussed in a lot of threads, which is what I meant. There's also Google. That's part of the fun of getting interested in a new car. You'll find out all kinds of other information about it in the process. Once you've got the basics down then asking folks on a website such as this, there are other websites as well, then you'll be able to ask much better questions.

Your open statement questions a "story" perpetuated by folks who are ignorant. There are lots of pluses and some minuses to the system. So go find out. You probably already have by now ...

 

Jason,

The brakes operate on an accumulator which holds the fluid on a constant pressure, and a valve that modulates the pressure to the wheels. There is no master cylinder in the way you know it. The system can best be compared to air-brakes in the way it works.

Best,

Jack.

 

Why do you think those cars have a large "BRAKE FAILURE" warning light right in the middle? Its because once the system fails, you'll stop when you hit a wall

Lots of ignorant people got stuck with cars like these and now can't get rid of them. I'm sure they'll offer to sell you their car...

 

Well count me in as one of those "ignorant people" .... and no, you cannot have my Bora

The reason for the brake failure light is that on regular brakes you know that they failed when the brake pedal hits the floor and your car is still moving forward. On the Citroen system the pedal is stiff even if there is a failure ... thus the warning light.

As for accidents caused by Citroen brake failure, I personally do not know of any although I am sure some exist. Same is true of regular brakes systems ... they do fail ... you know that, don't you ?? In fact, a 3500GT with the single circuit Girling brakes is a MUCH more dangerous braking system.

Jason: there is a thread dedicated to the Citroen brake system
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/maserati/228217-citroen-hydraulics-khamsin-bora-early-merak-late-indy.html

Ivan

 

An here's a prime example of that though he has a genuine hatred and seems hell bent on a mission. It's just hard to tell sometimes if it's to misinform or annoy everyone to death.

Modern braking and suspension systems are far more complex and when they fail it's liable to make the car handle very strangely at just the wrong moment.

BTW, mid to late 70's Lamborghini's had a brake failure light as well. Last time I checked they had no Citroen system on board.

 

Thank you, and it seems I was searching the wrong term (on fchat) LHM and Bora shed some light on my search.

Thanks and have found some information..

Wondering if anyone has every changed the brake system over to a standard system.. I wouldnt thing it would be that difficult.

Yes I have been offered one, I was buying a SS back in November but it was sold out from under me. I was offered a non SS and really want it. I am not scared of the resale or popularity of the car and can do most of my own work. Also I have been in the market for a Merak for over a year cash on hand, and have yet to meet anyone who cant get rid of them. They seem to sell fast unless the asking price is high.

If you know of anyone trying to sell please let me know.

 

Nice misleading comments from owners of citroen brakes. You gotta give it to them, they are trying really hard to make excuses for the silliest technology ever, which was eventually dumped, even by citroen.

Now moving on to the Merak...

The Merak Registry lists 3 of them located in the USA. Go to the registry, click on the check-mark "Cars for sale" and click the search icon. A few of them look really interesting, one is a plain Merak and two are SS models.

There is also a nice orange one for sale on ebay right now, very beautiful.

Mind you, late US cars have NO citroen stuff. Eventually people got fed up with them and the Maserati dealers requested their cars without citroen stuff. I am not sure if the conversion was done before or after final assembly, but I do know that many of them got converted once they arrived in the USA. The orange car, for example, is a proper one without citroen brakes.

 

I do not have a dog in this fight, but the "Brake Failure Warning Light" was there because the U.S. Government mandated it, not Citroen or Maserati.The practice then spread to the European authorities.

 

I've never seen it in other manufacturers and never seen it before citroen parts appeared in maserati... what other manufacturers/models have this brake failure warning?

 

Every US market car from about 1967:

Subpart B - Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

§ 571.135 Standard No. 135; Light vehicle brake systems.
...
S5.5. Brake system warning indicator. Each vehicle shall have one or more visual brake system warning indicators, mounted in front of and in clear view of the driver, which meet the requirements of S5.5.1 through S5.5.5. In addition, a vehicle manufactured without a split service brake system shall be equipped with an audible warning signal that activates under the conditions specified in S5.5.1(a).

Blue, why don't you tell us the source of your vast automotive knowledge? BTW, did you ever post the picture of your ZF transmission? I must have missed it.

Jason, I've seen one reference to changing the brakes to conventional vacuum assisted ones, but it didn't have much detail. Keep in mind that the same hydraulic system raises the headlights and operates the power assisted clutch. If you remove it, you'll need to find solutions for those as well. The booster will also take space from the luggage compartment.

 

Thank you GLB.

 

may i add that one of the most staid of marques also relies on LHM driven brake and self levelling systems. both my bentley turbo R and continental r have very clear brake warning lights which duly go on at start up and have never failed to switch off some seconds after.
they have over the many years i have had them always instilled full confidence in their ability to stop these 2.5 tonne, 400 hp cars.
mr Blue, your personal crusade against anything from LHM engineering to Iso Grifos would almost be amusing if it wasn't in such an unqualified manner trying to turn interested newcomers off. for the wrong reasons.

 

Ummm, don't do that...

Do "Bora BRAKES."

 

Okay ... I think this is BS. Converting the Citroen system to a conventional brake system is not an easy task. Why would "many" Meraks be converted once they arrived in the USA yet not a single Bora or Khamsin was converted? If the Citroen system was so bad that it affected US sales then logic would dictate that the flag ship cars (Bora + Khamsin) would also get converted. As I said ... pure nonsense. Show me the proof.

Ivan

 

GLB, never seen a car in Europe with such a warning light, other than citroen and maserati, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I never posted a photo of my gearbox because I never had one taken. It definitely doesn't say citroen and which information of mine would you like my source exactly?


Ivan, Fabio told me himself. We had a discussion in the summer, about the Meraks that are pure Maserati and don't have citroen stuff in them. He explained to me that officially the "tipo 80" edition of the Merak SS has no citroen stuff, but only 66 of them have been produced, very rare! He also explained to me that many USA models had been converted as well, while not real "tipo 80" they are similar because the LHM was removed. At the time I didn't press him for more info.

You want proof of what exactly? Why don't you call Fabio himself and ask about the details? Because I consider Fabio's word as proof enough.


PS:
Here is something interesting. All 1977-78 Meraks (LHD or RHD, EU models or export AUS) have LHM in them, with the exception of USA models. The orange car for sale on ebay is one such example.

 

Theres nothing wrong with an Lhm Merak. I had one for over a decade and they work fine offering strong effortless braking without straining your leg muscles. No reliability issues either in my experience. Try one and.see if you like it. The buyer of my car had no idea that it used the Citroen system and a short drive around the block had him converted. He certainly had no problems adjusting so its not exactly rocket science. Our friend Maseratiblue hates the stuff but I don't really care....He has his opinion and I have mine!!
Julian

 

So just because Fabio says so it must be true. That's your proof ??? He was probably a toddler when these cars were being built.

Fabio is a good friend, I like him a lot. But knowledge about vintage Maseratis is not his strongest point.

If you truly understood what it takes to do this conversion you would quickly realize that no new car dealer (or importer) would ever go through the trouble. The return on investment simply was no there to justify the cost on an entry level car.

Ivan

 

Nicely said Julian

Responses like yours make me want to give more credit to LHM, because it does have its merits.

Now these USA Meraks got me thinking, I found a lot more '79 models without LHM. So I checked at some unique exports like the rare Japanese Meraks, and those had LHM as well. So those USA variants are starting to make me wonder...

 

But I believe Japan is RHD which always got LHM from the start right to the very end?

 

Yeah that would be my proof. If he says many USA cars got converted then I believe him.

I see that pre-75 Meraks all have LHM, so many USA cars have LHM. It just seems that at some point USA Meraks changed. I'll see if I can dig more info (who did the conversion, how they dealt with inboard brakes, etc). I agree that this sort of conversion would be really hard to achieve, but it seems that too many cars have been converted. So we are not talking about 1-2... but whole yearly production.

It is also interesting that I see USA cars from '77 having this conversion, but the EU cars of "tipo 80" only appeared in the 80's, some years later.

Anyway, that is all speculation of course.

 

True, but so did pre-80's LHD cars.. but apparently things aren't so clear cut, so I just wanted to check.

Japanese cars may seem like regular RHD cars, but they got their own engines!!! Strange eh? You can see a table of engine types in the FAQ section of the registry. Maybe they had to adhere to special regulations for the Japan market? I don't know.