Virtually no turbo lag??

You're basing your turbo experience off of technology that was 5 years ago (911) vs. the 2014 e63... Since you said you didn't mind the e63's performance I'd be inclined to think a manufacturer like Ferrari would do just as well, if not better, than the e63's performance.

In reality none of us know until we get to drive the California T, 458 successor, etc...

 

Not unusual, but alot of misconceptions on here regarding turbocharger technology. The best reference for this sort of thing is Corky Bell's infamous book 'Maximum Boost.'

Many people are using the incorrect use of the term turbo lag and are in fact referring to boost threshold.

Boost threshold is the specific RPM there is onset of boost. It depends on a few factors but mainly the A/R of the turbo (or the size of it) as well as the amount of engine load used to drive and flow the turbo. For example, turbos in an F40 may have the onset of boost at 4000rpm. So it may seem that under 4000rpm the F40 is not making much power, but then at 4000rpm there is steep rise in the torque curve and the sharp and abrupt sensation of power.

Turbo lag is the delay that occurs upon the onset of boost. It is when we are above the boost threshold. Lag then is the delay that occurs when we change the throttle position and then notice considerable boost. For example when we are above 4000rpm in our F40, and we stomp on the pedal with a big smile on our face, there is a slight hesitation for the boost to build in the turbo and give us that sense of power surge. When we stomp on the pedal in our 458's there is immediate response, no delay.

When they say turbo lag is virtually non existant in the CaliforniaT, it is because if you have no lag, you have no turbo. There will inherently be some lag in the system with any turbo, but nowadays none that is noticable on driving; maybe in a lab somewhere they can measure lag. Turbo's have gotten so good lately.

In the new F1 season they are using the spinning turbocharger to recharge the electric battery for bursts of extra power. Conversely, the battery could also be used to help spool the turbo to help reduce lag significantly until it is not really felt. This will eventually no doubt filter into our cars someday.

Cheers fellas

 

Thanks for the explanation. I also thought of having an electric motor spool the turbos as electric motors have instant response and immediate max power. But would this not diminish the efficiency that they're trying to accomplish? Seems like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Also, from what I understand Ferrari is exempt from all the emissions standards due to low production volumes.
All this to say is any 458 successor that's a TT better be freaking awesome as I feel it's an unnecessary path. HP races have never lead to fantastic cars, it's the whole salami a la 458.

 

Here in Germany the standards have to be met by every car-producer.
As we all know Ferrari is owned by FIAT and thus the F-car's emissions are accounted to the FIAT-Group. They sell millions of small cars with small engines so the few thousand of Ferraris really don't make a big difference.
That is btw the problem of Aston Martin. As they do not belong to a larger car-producer they have to seek ways to lower the emissions of the cars they sell. That's why they came up with the Cygnet

 

As mentioned before there are so many variables that effect turbo lag such as size of the turbos, variable vane technology, diameter of the exhaust feeding the turbo, exhaust flow rate etc.

There is no way to completely eliminate turbo lag the issue is how much time elapses between on the gas and boost coming on. Good one are in miliseconds bad ones are in seconds.

I have had 4 turbo Porsches, 87, 89, 2003, and 2005. Each year the amount of turbo lag was reduced. With the 87 it was 3 seconds and than hold on. I currently still have my 89 and I reduced turbo lag by improving exhaust flow with headers, light weight flywheel so the engine can spool up faster and modifying the electronic ignition.

One key point is determining the sweet spot when you are on boost and keeping the RPMs at that point so you are always on boost which will eliminate turbo lag. Worse thing you can do when driving a turbo car is go in and out of boost especially in turns.

So I think there is always some turbo lag just how much is there. Maybe Ferrari has invented some new technology as mentioned before keeping the turbos spinning by using an electric motor or very small turbos instead of one large one. We shall see.

 

I own a 12c. Don't agree with you at all. The car flat hauls ass.

 

I believe the ferrari V8 TT uses a pair of twin scroll turbos (like BMW) to reduce lag.

 

Hauling ass is not the issue my turbo hauls ass it is the response time. I am sure the 12 response time is in milliseconds but there is a delay which must be taken into consideration when entering and exiting turns.

 

Just watched Chris Harris review of the new McClaren P1. The engineer discusses turbo lag. What they did to eliminate all turbo lag is they use a feature called "torque fill". What this is when the turbos are off boost and you floor it the electric motor takes over while the turbos spool up which eliminate turbo lag. Once the turbos spool up which most likely takes milliseconds the electric motor shuts off. When you slow down off boost the electric motor kicks in again until the turbos spool up preventing any turbo lag.

This is really great review also explaining turbo lag

Chris Harris drives the McLaren P1 - Autoweek

 

Come on, guys. Turbo-lag and milliseconds...
The Speciale shifts gear in 50 milliseconds - I guess we're talking in seconds to reach full boost after turbine-spindown.
It takes time to accelerate the turbine and it can't be done too fast because otherwise the compressor-stage will stall...

 

I drove the Mac 12 and I couldn't find any lag that I would talk about. I think the lag thing comes from people who haven't driven a turbo car since 1985.

 

Or turbo diesel trucks - Ford particularly - not knocking them but they used to have a lag

 

Lol! I agree 100 percent Mayor.

 

If you say so

 

My Gallardo twin turbo has a touch of lag. Then again it makes 1138awhp.

 

I think aftermarket kits will have lag. I think when today's completely engineered from scratch motors intended for turbo use are made, they can really tune it out.

The Mac 12 did impress me on this issue. I really tried to find it and I couldn't, or couldn't find any that I would care about.

 

My BMW 335 had virtually no turbo lag. The Ferrari engine would be even better.

 

That depends on the size of the turbo. If they do a twin setup they can achieve less lag then doing a single. Now if they are using a small turbo then the lag wont be an issue. Also that is not taking weather into consideration. Turbo and heat sucks...

 

Virtually is not the same as no.

 

The turbo I drove two years ago and the twin Turbo I drove yesterday had no lag. They do it in part with two turbos one small and the other larger. The turbos also have varible vane. zjust great engineering!

I forgot how great they look and how good they perform.

So it is a no Go drive one and see for yourself.

Best

Lee

 

Ideally you would mate a bigger engine with a sensibly sized turbo for zero lag. Anything from around 4.0 litters upwards, with a sensible turbo, can easily make big power without stressing the motor/drivetrain
A 2.0 liter mitsubishi lancer with a turbo from a dump track will make big power, after a ridiculous amount of lag time, and it will go on to give a usable amount of power between about 7000 rpm to 7300 rpm and then finally go POP!

 

To me there are 2 issues, and the least of them is lag...which is just barely perceptible on most modern v8 turbos (and I'm hoping even less so on the Cali T). The other is how steep the torque curve is, which is great in everyday street driving but not nearly as controllable on a track (at least for novice me) as a NA engine is...where the curve tends to be smoother. Whether the steep curve at low rpm is a product of lag...well I'm no engineer either. Regardless, in my mind, I really enjoy the 458 on track and for occasionally screaming around on the right road, but a Cali "T" (for torque) may be better suited for roaming around town than an NA version....while hopefully still being a lot of fun and not too lazy. I'm going to get one just to test my thinking!

 

Modern turbo engines are wonderful. No, lag big power, better fuel economy ect. I don't think we have to worry about Ferrari going with turbos. Saying that there is nothing better than a screaming 458 at 9rpm. Just a beautiful thing.

 

on a daily basis I do find turbo lag. It is not there all the time, but definitely perceptible. I am talking about my 997.2-TT and the GTR.

When u have the cars in sport mode the lag reduces, but still present. only time that it is consistently absent is when I am launching the car, I guess the turbos spool up in advance.

 

Ι have a 330 and I chose it over the 335 cause of the lag I could discern on the turbo motor. Its sound was also worse...