250 GT/E vs 330 GT 2+2 vs 365 GT2+2?

Hello, being new to Ferrari, I have a question regarding the driving experience, performance and handling characteristics of the 60's 2+2s. Reading the specifications, the models became heavier with each change and more refined with the 365 GT 2+2 having power steering and independent rear suspension. However did the cars become better to drive and more nimble around the turns? Has anyone driven all three and would care to share their thoughts? I read in the post that the 365 was better to drive than the 330. Is this true?

 

Hmmm. I suppose I'll have to respond, having owned all types, although I never gave it much thought. I should say first that condition makes more difference than model. If you have a clapped-out whatever, you're going to be unhappy, and vice versa. Should also note that some later 330's had A/C and/or PS.

I once drove a 365 from Chicago to L.A., and had a marvelous time. It was absolutely great on the highway. Nimble? I don't think so. But still fun to drive in any conditions. Problem area: Rear suspension (many "levelers" have been replaced with something else.)

Given my choice, I would probably opt for a late 330 with A/C and PS. Just a bit lighter feel, and closer to "nimble". I also like the classic look.

The 250 is getting back to basics. The overdrive was notoriously problematic. Still, the model is getting more play in the market, I think, perhaps because it is viewed as the last of the 250's. (Or at least near to the last).

I'm not sure I have helped. Let's hope for more responders.

 

I'm all ears! What kind of problems? Electrical of mechanical?

Best wishes, Kare

 

I own a 365GT, and at some point might consider adding a 250GTE to the collection if prices don't get completely out of hand. The 365 is a wonderful tourer-- I did almost 700 miles in one day in mine a few years ago.

 

365 GT: Smoothest, most comfortable most sophisticated.

330 GT (S2, late): As Ed described - 'improved' driveline (2 mount engine) but still no IRS.

330 GT (S2, early + S1 interim): True 5 speed transmission, hanging pedals but otherwise, old school Ferrari - in my opinion, the extra liter compensates for the increased mass quite well. Basically the same chassis and drivetrain as Superfast S2 but with smaller engine. Mine is (was, hopefully will be again) a blast - a lot of fun on smaller roads.

330 GT (S1): 330 America drivetrain (250 GTE with an extra liter a displacement) and slightly longer chassis - comfortable inside even if you are over 6' tall. Handling similar to an early S2 except floor mounted pedals and 4 speed with overdrive, also slightly different brake feel - not sure if this is because of the pedal mounts or slightly different brake components (or just the differences between the individual cars I drove). Basically the same chassis and drivetrain as Superfast S1 but with smaller engine.

330 America: 250 GTE with a 4 liter engine (early cars had 400SA blocks, I believe) - a bit tight if you are over 6' but otherwise the best 60's Ferrari 2+2. I suspect that it feels like an SA.

250 GTE (I am not aware of any significant driving differences between S1, S2 and S3): A 250 GT with back seats and overdrive; only minor compromises in handling due to changes required to allow 2+2 configuration.

Having written all of this, Ed is completely right when he says that condition is the most important factor. My note describes detail differences assuming fully sorted regularly used cars - all are great!

Regards,

Art S.

 

I guess to expand on what Art said:

I own a series 1 330GT that I have driven for 25,000 miles, (at a maintenance cost of over $3 a mile!). I have driven a smattering of other 330GT's, both series 1's and 2's, and have driven two different 250 GTE/330 America variants plus I have driven a 365GTC/4 on the track (I know you didn’t ask about this one but I’ll blather on about it anyway).

As Ed said, each individual car does have it's own personality. The first 330GT series 2 I drove felt quite a bit different from my Series 1. With a super heavy clutch and a very numb feel, it felt like there was an evolution between the Series 1's and 2's. However all the Series 2's I have driven since then were much more similar to mine.

I liken the 330GT as an Italian Mustang, or what a Mustang would feel like if it handled better. Not that the 330 is nimble, it’s not an old 911 (which I also own), but it is a hoot to drive as it handles well enough if the turns aren’t too tight. As you’d expect, it is a veritable sound and light show, with those great Ferrari noises and a car that changes in feel the longer you’re driving it. With the large wooden wheel and the plush seats, as soon as you get in it, you know it’s not 2014 anymore. You’ll find yourself bombing down the road transported to another time and place only to notice that you’re going the same pace as that Chevy Citation in the next lane.

The GTE/330 America’s I have driven I didn’t like as much as the 330. They felt quite a bit older and the wheels felt narrower in the chassis making it more of ‘50’s ride. Though it’s 200 pounds lighter it is certainly no more nimble and I felt less connected to it. That said, it’s still a very cool car that has the entire Ferrari mystique. Peter Kalikow once said to me in an oracular mood, that the 330GT was a better car then the 250GTE just not as pretty just like the relationship of later 456 and 612’s.

Now the 365GTC/4 I didn’t expect to like and I did. Though it is more of a cruiser then the 330GT and it’s much more modern feeling with a very wide stance and power steering, still it had a Ferrari-ness that made it entertaining to drive. It’s no track car of course so being on a track (with someone else’s car!) was a weird experience.

With all these cars you will adjust to them. They will feel strange each time you get in but become more and more ‘right’ feeling to you the longer your trip.

 

Mechanical, allegedly because of lubricant shared with the trans. Had one go bad on a trip from Phoenix, Az, to SoCal; seized up so I couldn't go forward with the rest of the trip, and had to get a very expensive tow. AND it's hard to find people who know how to rebuild them. I've heard plenty of other stories, too.

 

Actually Ed, that is not universally true. The overdrive in my car is not a Laycock de Normanville unit but a version of one made in Italy and it does not share fluids with the trans.

 

I have both the GTC4 and the GT 2+2 and love them both..
I drove lots of 330's before I purchased these 365's and preferred them..

 

Mike,

You have refined taste! I prefer my cars a bit more primitive .

Regards,

Art S.

 

Thank you so much for such interesting perspectives. I just spoke with a Ferrari expert today and he said that one of the major differences between the 250GTE and the 330 GT2+2 is the size of the tires. He also said that the 365 2+2 is good for cruising on highways but the brakes are really underpowered for the weight of the car. He recommended that I switch out the wheels in the 250 GTE for a bigger and wider rim and low profile tires to provide better handling and grip a ride similar to the 330. Anyone care to comment on this? Also since the 250 GTE is similar to the performance of the other 250s, does this mean that other cars like the California LWB, 250 GT Coupe or even the SWB are worse to drive than the 330 GT 2+2? Also based on the poor braking power of the 365 2+2, would this make the 330 GT2+2 the driving/handling performance champ of the 60's 12 cylinder 2+2s?

 

For what its worth.... I have definitely not noticed that the 365's brakes were underpowered. When I first started driving mine I was actually relatively impressed by them. Are they up to modern standards, well, no. With that being said I was amazed at how modern they did feel and how amazing they are compared to other cars of the same period. I think it may all be expectation. If you are expecting super short stopping distances with no lock or fade, well, not going to happen with any of them. I am sure I can get better stopping power by switching to P7 tires or something even more modern but I like the way the car sits on wires and xwx's so i accept that the car is 45+ years old and will drive as such.

 

Well I've also driven a SWB and a PF Coupe. With the SWB there really was no comparison to driving a GTE. It felt like the perfect sportscar. As for the PF Coup, driving that felt very formal, very boulevardier, I guess the other side (from the SWB) of the GTE coin. So I know these cars share the same parts but they really don't drive the same at all, at least to me. And again, if you own and drive one of these cars, it's possible the shortcomings will not really bother you at all. They will just evoke a evoke time and be transportive.

 

GTE is not at all tight for a person of 6'.

I'm 6'1 and even fit perfectly behind a driver seat I have adjusted for myself, so you may run into trouble if there are four very tall people trying to get in. The greatest misunderstanding is that the rear seat would be for children only. It isn't.

 

I don't think that the brakes of the 365 GT 2+2, 330 GT 2+2 or 250 GT/E are underpowered. If you can lock the wheels under braking they are good enough because you can't get more than that. So the difference is the tire. But still the tires and the brakes are always good enough for the normal cruising speed on most of the worlds roads with speed limits.

And only an idiot will try to hunt down a modern car in an old Ferrari on a German Autobahn with no speed limit.

Matthias

 

Thomas,

RE improvements: What's the point? The limitations add to the fun of the experience of the drive (at least to me). There are much cheaper ways of going faster but they are not necessarily more fun. Also, be careful if you upgrade: e.g. Modern tires may have enough grip to overstress wire wheels under certain driving conditions.


shoreorthopod,

I've always been told that the first hard braking sequence is fine but if you are very aggressive and brake aggressively multiple times in a short period, the brakes will heat up and lose effectiveness. I have not yet experienced this.


Yale,

Not surprised at the SWB (I'm sorry I showed up late that day), but that is a different league. The PF is a surprise, as I heard it is close to a TdF in feel. Could the PF been shiny on top and worn out underneath?


kare,

I'm a bit taller. I can get in and feel relatively comfortable in a GTE but, it's a bit tight. Strangely, a 308 GTB felt more roomy - maybe it is just perception.


Regards to all,

Art S.

 

From the beginning of series 3 (GT/E) fluids were separated, but I don't know if that was good or bad as now there would be one more fluid level to watch.

Basically Laycock de Normanville has a very good reputation but they too can be broken by incorrect use. I would think that in a Ferrari there would be constant risk of engaging the OD at too low speeds. With a used car you'll never know how it was abused and it is also true that they are 50 year old now like the rest of the car.

 

Really interesting thread, I've always admired the 330GT. Maybe one day.

 

I understand many modern brake pads don't give full performance as modern materials were designed to work over a much larger contact area.

Wider wheels easily destroy the crispy and light feeling of an old car. It may also increse understeering, which is not exactly an improvement.

 

Likewise. I'm 6' 4" and have no issue with my GTE. Like Art I also have a 308 which is comfortable but nothing is more roomy than my 68 911, the lack of transmission tunnel makes me feel like I'm able to roll around inside.

 

I've never noticed any lack of braking power in my 365GT over the last 20 years. Granted, I haven't been tracking it, but I have done some pretty spirited street drives.

 

Thank you for this unique insight. It's really helpful.

 

You are absolutely correct Kare. My GTE came with 3801 wheels and 205 series tires that the previous owner put on. Far to heavy of a feel especially turning the wheel when still. After replacing those with the correct 3690 wheels and 185 cinturato tires -what a difference. Much more nimble, light steering and there is so much more feel in the handling. The feel Ferrari intended.
Steve