David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

0900 is a car to ferrari P4 specifications, I doubt anyone can dispute that. Anything outside of that is an opinion only, whichever side of the fence you sit.

I am sure if Enzo was not happy about 0900 existing in his lifetime he had sufficient clout to make this very publically known, if there any evidence of such out there?

 

By Enzo? None I know of. By Ferrari S.p.A? There is. Long after David claimed the chassis number "0900" Ferrari S.p.A in written documents and a bill of sale used chassis number 0900 to describe a 312PB that they made and sold to Mr.Chinetti.

 

So Ferrari themselves don't believe Piper's 0900 is a Ferrari or there is simply confusion regarding issued chassis numbers?

 

Are you saying that Ferrari SpA in written documents expressed their unhappiness about the existence of P4 0900 or is it just the case that Ferrari SpA used the chassis number 0900 to describe the 312 P(B) they sold to Mr Chinetti? If the latter then your post is very misleading and total bullxxxx. It may just be an error in the issuance of chassis numbers.

 

Exacto. Regarding those parts, the engine in Piper's replica "P4 0900" is NOT a genuine P4 engine. It's block has NO P4 stampings and the stamping it does have are 350 Can Am stampings with the exact same serial number of the 350 Can Am engine currently in 350 Can Am 0858. (One poster who has owned a real 250 GTO, a Real 412P, and a Real 250 TR posted that the stampings on Pipers 350 Can Am engine don't look original and I agree with him). Piper says Enzo sanctioned Pipers replica/continuation and Enzo may have. That there is no written record of this "sanction" is what it is. The Ferrari S.p.A bill of sale to Mr. Chinetti for 312PB chassis 0900 speaks for itself. As an aside a few years ago there was a serious fire at David's. Has anyone seen David's "0900" since the fire? Was it damaged? Has it been repaired? Bueller??

 

The above is a typical example of the negative tone of your posts directed against David Piper.

P4 0900 does have a genuine P4 tipo 237 engine that has been bored out by 208cc to make it a tipo 247 engine. Ferrari would not have made a new 4176cc engine from scratch to compete against 7 and 8 litre cars in the Can Am series. If the engine was new they'd have made it of at least the large size they made 612 Can Am #0866.

Please direct us to the posts of the poster that the stampings on the engine in P4 0900 do not look original.

 

The only written documents from Ferrari S.p.A that mention chassis 0900 AFASIK are on the bill of sale/Certificate of Origin that Ferrari S.P.A issued to Mr. Chinetti for a 312PB. That is fact.

 

I guess the question is if 0900 was purchased and used as a parts car for another P4 and if any of those parts were subsequently required to be used, say the engine block in a P4, would that then make the P4 recipient a replica? or just a P4 with correct specification parts replaced like for like, just like we all do when we all maintain our cars regardless of that they are.

 

Are there not numerous examples of Ferrari leaving the factory with the same chassis number? I remember reading some debate about the run of Enzo's? or was it F50s

In my mind Enzo was Ferrari up until his death, after that it was run by business people. These people cannot re-write history to suit them, if Enzo knew of P4 0900 and said/ did nothing about it then what a bunch of suits later say or do is irrelevant.

 

Enzo was quite alive when Ferrari sold 312PB chassis 0900 to Mr. Chinetti in 1977.

 

Yes but I doubt he sat on the factory floor with a set of stamps punching out chassis numbers.

Just a simple case of left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing in industry in the 70s and it only later transpired a particular number had been used more than once.

The actual number has no bearing on the genuine original components used in the build regardless. P4 parts used to make a P4 pretty simple.

 

So no problem for the next owner putting 0900 through Classiche?

The next owner will be given official documents/records that certify 0900 is indeed a Ferrari P4?

 

My understanding is that the current ferrari management do not recognise 0900 P4 as a ferrari as it is not a factory built car so classiche is not an option, and much like many actual factory built ferrari's such as Jims ex Piper P4 also could not also be issued with such a certificate I believe from what I have read on here.

 

Jim has an ex David Piper 412P #0854, not a P4. I don't see any reason why it cannot be Red Book Classiched. The other ex David Piper car Jim has, has the chassis frame that is claimed and said to be 330 P3/4 #0846, which Ferrari threw in the trash bin which is probably the car you are referring to above.

 

Interesting post. If what you say is correct and there is a reliable s/n stamp on the engine block in 0900 this then could be the one of the two engines that went with 0858 when it was converted into a CanAm car and one of the two engines that was with 0858 when it was sold to McKay and went on its odyasey to New Zealand, South Africa and onward.As there is no record to date of these two engines s/ns it leaves open the possibility that when Piper got 0858 and was building 0900 using parts from 0858 the engine was one of these. Then if an engine swap could be arranged between Piper and the new owner of 0858. This would put the correct original block at least back into 0858 and 0900 which is at best a reproduction /replica could then just have a period correct engine block. tongascrew

 

So Ferrari confirm what JG has is the remains of 0846 but won't classiche the car because they once wrote off the chassis, but 0900 (PIPER) was NEVER written off but cannot be red booked because they simply don't believe 0900 (PIPER) is a Ferrari or ever was.

I think the title 'Piper P4' is more fitting for 0900 considering and NOT Ferrari P4.

 

Where have Ferrari said they do not believe David Piper's P4 #0900 is or ever was a Ferrari?

 

The first part of your question should be directed to Paul500. (see post#3018)

In response to the second part of you question, the burden of proof as to 0900's claims to be a genuine Ferrari lays at the feet of the people that created it after the original P4's had already been created by the factory.

Do you have any relevant information that suggests Ferrari did believe 0900 PIPER was a genuine Ferrari P4 at any point of time?

 

I believe the tail on 0900 in the pictures in posts 2953 and 3005 is that of a P4 Berlinetta. It does not have the central vent of the Spyder which looks like it's blanked off in the Berlinetta.

 

I have no relevant information that suggests Ferrari believe P4 0900 is a genuine Ferrari, BUT none that they don't.

 

Would it not be sensible to require evidence to support the opinion that Ferrari did once consider a car made AFTER the original cars were manufactured, a geniune Ferrari P4?

I would err on the side of caution considering the backstory of 0900 and of course Ferrari's apparent opinion of 0900 now. It would be very interesting to see if the market would echo that if 0900 was ever for sale.

 

The burden of proof would seem to be obvious.

 

Mine was just an assumption that Ferrari would not view 0900 as a ferrari purely based on the fact they did not build it, even if its construction was sanctioned by them via Enzo.

It is a pity that this site does not have direct links to the factory so that a spokesperson could clarify exactly their official view on many matters, not just those raised on this thread.

The reality is that everyone is just guessing and airing their own views which confuses the matter

 

Ferrari may not have assembled all the parts to piece P4 0900 together for the first time but all the parts were made by Ferrari, Drogo, Vaccari & Bosi etc who made 0856, 0858 and 0860. Many of the parts in 0900 had come from 0858 or 0860. Yes, it would be good to have someone from Ferrari to clarify things.

 

No confusion necessary. It's actually quite simple. 0856 is the only genuine Ferrari P4.