Interesting engine choice (esp. since I am an old Hemi buff ), BUT; why not a 'modern' Maserati V8 as a better choice? Sure, no hop up parts, but why bother? Plenty HP already. Plus, you get that incredible Maser V8 exhaust rip, and so far no hemi or sbc/bbc has ever equalled that one-stop-shop at Copart for your entire engine/transmission package, and start measuring & fitting. Brakes too? OK, I'm getting all warm now .better stop before i begin to get real serious . ;-)
Here is a So. Cal. car Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Everybody has the right to do whatever to their cars. Engineering wise this looks pretty well done! Is that a carbon fiber leaf spring, from a Corvette, that I see there? Quite a job to do, frontsuspension also looks neat, how does the car drive? Would be interested to learn what happened to the original engine and gearbox? Ciao, Bart
Hi What are the dimensions on the 4.9. What would mate to the 727 for a QP III. Would the Viper V10 be similar size and weight, what about the ancillaries and gearbox? Could the rear end handle the freight or would it need something else. I may have a candidate.
Generally I can accept a few minor modifications, especially for reliability. But if an owner starts making major mod's, maybe he doesn't really want that car. I didn't really care for that one. I thought it was kind of "Harry high school": Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I did some quick measurements - the engine is out of the Bora and I could combine those measurements with what I can see from the top of the QP3. These aren't precise, but.. 4.9 width between cam cover extremes is 76cm sump (Bora type) to top of carb studs is about 65cm, aircleaner is 8cm thick length from QP3 bellhousing flange to water pump pulley is about 80cm. Weight of the Bora engine is 514lbs not including A/C compressor or the hydraulic pump, but it does include the flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate. The QP3 differential is a Salisbury 4HA, which is essentially a Dana 44, the same unit used in the Viper, so it should be strong enough for the standard engines. We've never had a Viper engine to measure and I don't really trust what I see on the Internet, but I suspect that an 8.4L V10 would be a squeeze.
I don't know if this project ever came to fruition but at one point Jath Witham was rumoured to be putting the Viper engine and chassis pieces into Jim Heady's old QPIII. Jay has already done a few HIPO QPIIIs.
I saw on the internet that the viper is 711 pounds which would add a lot of weight to the front end that is already overstressed. If you went the viper route you would need to redo the front end structure. I will look at measurements. The other option would be motors already mated to the 727 which is a favourite transmission for hipowered MoPAR units also. Just thinking …… Quote "Extensive modifications included a reworked engine with higher power and less weight, an almost completely redesigned chassis that was made 60 lb (27 kg) lighter and 25% stiffer in torsional rigidity through meticulous computer analysis, a thoroughly redesigned suspension, and reduced braking distances; the 1996 to 2002 Viper GTS had a lighter (approximately 650 lb (290 kg)) 450 bhp (340 kW) engine, which could complete the quarter mile in 12.3 seconds, 0.3 seconds and 6 mph (9.7 km/h) faster than its predecessor, and increased top speed by 11 mph (18 km/h) or so. " This is probably similar to the QP III engine weight with flywheel and clutch etc
On the QP III catch all thread there is a picture of a 440 in a QPIII. It looks horrible and bodged up. Not the look I would want at all. The Viper V10 could look good (get rid of Viper script of course) but who knows.
Well, how about a late QP5 drivetrain with the 6 speed ZF automatic? The ZF transmission is in the conventional location so it should "drop right in".... I have no idea if it would fit or if the electronics could be tamed, but the engine is light(I've read), looks right, and has plenty of power. The QP3 has a reputation as a behemoth, but the QP5 actually weighs 460lbs more. With QP5 power, the old beast should be pretty spritely. BTW, those weights I mentioned for the 4.9L included the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. I didn't weigh those separately, but deducting 50lbs would be about right for the flexplate version. The 4.9 is big, but it really isn't very heavy. Then again, maybe this one? [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFiV23ovS3I]Maserati Quattroporte III V12 (BMW 750i) - Sneak Preview - YouTube[/ame] Larry
You'd have to check with the California clubs on what Jay is doing these days. I didn't hear much about him two years ago when I was out there once again after a long absence. That's when you and I met briefly at the MIE dinner party. Jay has had somewhat tumultuous interactions with the Maserati community and I do know that he had a pretty severe sight issue something about detached retinas? I haven't seen him since 2000. But did wo a lot of modifications to QPIIIs and those are well known cars. You might try contacting John Asmus or Paul Musselar, both are from the N. California area. If you need some help contact me offline.
I think I'd dub that one The Neville Chamberlain edition - capitulation to the Germans. Here again I think ... if you want a reliable, fairly quick and modern performing machine then just drive the QPV. If you relish the beauty of the old QPIII then you already know what a behemoth it is by comparison so try and make the original engine run as well as you can and live with it. Heavily modified QPIIIs will never be worth very much and that's one hell of an undertaking. You can make the original do pretty well once the fuel system, emissions and AC systems are properly sorted. But you're driving am early 1980's Italian car and isn't that the point! Those low stressed 4.9L V8s run for a lot of miles when attended to by reasonably talented enthusiasts. The Webers aren't unreliable or a huge mystery but they ARE Carburetters, not FI. BY now all the traditional weaknesses of the QPIII are pretty well know. Many of those will still have to be addressed regardless of which engine is in the car. Just enjoy them!
Of course all a bit of fanciful thinking. I would really like to see the treatment done similar to the Eagle Jaguars which uses the same cars and literally upgrades all the key bits that everyone needs. Doing this you could keep the same engine but get all the ancillaries working right. However, a QPIII with a blown motor is just parts. Keep the motor in the shed and have a try? I agree it is money down the drain but done right it would be fun. I am not talking about a bodged cheapo US motor because the 4.9 it too difficult and expensive ...
I asked someone to measure the VIPER motor and transmission from a salvage shop. Not exact but interesting: ENGINE: Length is 36 Width (outside of manifold to manifold) is 31 Height (bottom of pan to top of intake) is 21 TRANSMISSION: Height is 17 ¼ Width is 21 Length is 32 ¼ Gen 2 & 3 From bell housing to center of shifter is 25
That 36" length puts the nose of the engine under the radiator cover if you keep the transmission mounting flange in the same location. Anything is possible (there's even a Jag V-12 powered Corvair) but some swaps are harder than others. The swaps we've done have been much simpler, but there were still plenty of problems to overcome. The transmission was presumably a Tremec manual; as far as I can tell, there were never any automatic Vipers. What are your objectives for a swap?
Well, I love the cars and love the 4.9 too. There are enough good ones (I have 3) that putting the old motor aside (but preserved)and doing something only for me would be the goal. That could be to boost up the 4.9 - someone is doing this but I think it is a highly technical process. What I would want to do would be to have a New Bentley esque QP III. Modern levels of power on the button. Not boy racer dragstrip style but I think what was intended by Maserati in the first place.
While Chevy engines remain popular conversion go-to successes, someone should look into a FORD v8 302 small block or a a 351. Kaase P38 heads with Edlebrock FI should produce a very reliable and calm 500++ HP easily, cheaply, and safely. Check pan conformation. The 302 was a popular choice for Miata conversions (see Monster Miata), fit very nicely and easily. The 351 in the Pantera fit right up to a ZF transaxle. Kaase can hardly be beat. What a Q!! NE
Our swaps have been mostly the usual - LS into everything! Actually, only C4 Corvette, GM A-body (VistaCruiser) and '67 Camaro, plus SBC into 240Z. Currently oldest son George is putting a 2.3 turbo (Pinto) into a '60's Falcon. Most of these swaps are very well supported by the aftermarket but even so, finding an oil pan that didn't interfere with the cross member or steering linkage on the Camaro took four tries; you can't believe everything you find on the Web! Also, like a lot of our projects, many of these are still "in progress". My Jensen Interceptor has been "in progress" since 1985.... We're in Garland, a suburb of Dallas, TX. There's no place worth driving here, so we play with the mechanics instead. I infected my kids with the car disease at an early age, and have tried to help them set up car related businesses. Will has a CNC fabrication shop and George a precision engine building company in the same building as my custom electronics company. We built a hobby shop inside with a couple of lifts and have provided start-up space for a painter friend. None of it is impressive but it gives us a place and facilities to play with cars. I bought my QP3 mainly to save it from the crusher. Too many of them have gone that way. I have seen your beautiful cars and the work that has gone into them, but mine will probably be, ahem, in progress for awhile. I have to finish the Bora first. I thought briefly about making a completely reversible bolt-in swap for the QP3 using (what else?) an LS engine. It appears that the basic dimensions would work. That says nothing about interference with the steering rack or cross member or exhaust header fit - it was just a rough look. Like you, I would retain the original drivetrain so the car could be returned to factory original later. Although this approach is perhaps not very imaginative, it should provide much better performance and fuel economy. The Jensen R and S <http://interceptor3.com/?p=132> show what can be done with the LS and 4L80 GM automatic. The 6L80 would be better if it fits. Note also the 17" wheels styled like the 15" originals. The reason I mentioned the 4.9's weight is that it was surprisingly low. That suggests that a 650-700lb engine might unbalance the car. I've heard that the QP3 front suspension is from the Pantera. George has one of those, but I haven't looked to verify the statement. If so, then putting extra load on components that were originally designed for the front of a mid-engined car might be a bad idea. Regarding the hotted up 4.9, I'm patiently waiting for Elliot Siegel to finish his elaborate project. If he is very successful, then maybe there's scope for a useful but less ambitious upgrade. We have a 5 axis CNC head porting machine that's not too busy... We haven't done much with SBFs. The problem with the LS series engines is that they're so popular that it is too easy to stay in the rut. The LS2 in my C5 was easily bumped up to about 480hp, judging from the 410+ at the wheels. The LS3 crate engine we put in the Camaro has a factory warranty and guaranteed 480hp. The one downside for you is that, like most modern engines, it wasn't designed for appearance. It can be improved - we have one customer's 800hp twin turbo LS7 (for a Porsche 911, believe it or not) that looks clean, though not exotic. BTW, said customer already has a GT3; apparently it's not fast enough. Sorry - I get carried away. I don't pretend any expertise on these things, just a lot of enthusiasm and possibly a dollop of ADHD.
The serious question is do you have time to commit to a build like this ? what's going to be the donner car and etc do you have the space to work on something like this ? at the end did you want something that will be worth a lot of $ or a money pit with no value at the end ? who's going to do the wiring and retrofitting and then you still have R&D time of getting the car perfect. never start with deplorable state car - that is a parts car, but start with a clean car and use the deplorable car as the back up parts car. This isn't a car that parts are redaly available. ask the question do you want to drive or do you want to play ? Take the money you have and get a proper track car and enjoy the weekends tracking club racing A good friend of mine built up a 930 Porsche and set it up for a LS2 700hp and one day, wife said it all had to go, so you got that to deal with.
GLB...I appreciate you taking the time to explain your experience and history with restomoding cars. I'm currently searching for a Mexico, Ghibli, or Indy that has a missing drive train, blown motor, or something that would make it a good candidate for a restomod. I had an LS2/4L60e installed in my 65 C2…the result exceeded my expectations, on every level. I think these motors look great, esp. with after market valve covers and/or fuel rail covers. That same shop did an LS2 restomod on a beautifully restored 250 GT. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I've heard that the QP3 front suspension is from the Pantera. George has one of those, but I haven't looked to verify the statement. If so, then putting extra load on components that were originally designed for the front of a mid-engined car might be a bad idea. .[/QUOTE] Hi The front end is indeed Pantera derived although the original shocks are different in design. It also has Porche 928 tie rod ends (or at least they fit). From a design perspective this is a problem with the QPIII. Not a danger but every car you look at needs ball joints, tie rod ends and fronts shock/springs redone. They are safe and it drives nice but under designed. The front shock set sold by MIE/Maserati Source etc are not the right solution. They raise the front end of the car way too much and it looks very odd. For that reason I worked with a racing shop in the UK, sent them my old shocks and we designed (or they did) a new adjustable shock set up using Ohlins equipment. Thor (a regular contributor here) had a broken front shock set up so we arranged for him to jump me in the line and get the first set. They are more expensive then the MIE unit but less expensive than the NOS from Italy. Thor advises that it is a revolution in drive and really transforms the car. I think this would provide part of the solution. I have attached some of Thor's pictures (his car not mine) to show the front end set up. You can see more detailed pictures of my cars on my thread. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
