The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

MiuraSV

Please answer these two questions.

1. Do you believe Jim has the remains of chassis #0846 in his car?

If not...

2. What do you think the chassis of 0846 is then?

 

AMEN.

The change in the chassis configuration from P3 to P4 was all I ever needed to see - there was no reason on earth to make such a change in what was thought to be a replica P4 chassis; with the elimination of all other reasonable possibilitites, it must be 0846.

Also, the picture of the car after its fire at LeMans shows that this car was far, far from "destroyed," even if SpA subsequently decided to bin it.

 

Exactly. At least gives us another theory.

The evidence has been presented that it is, and is sufficient in explaining why it is.

I believe everyone here, but Miurasv, believes that it is what Napolis says it is.

If you don't believe the evidence presented that it is, PLEASE present your evidence that it isn't, or you have nothing to really say in the matter.

 

Not true. It seems that this piece of paper cannot be produced anyway. I've been waiting since post #6600 which was 2 weeks ago.

 

It also seems like you wont answer my very simple questions.

 

1. It may be 0846. It may not.

2. I really don't know what it is and I'm still trying to work it out which is why I need to see the confirmation in writing from Ferrari that Jim Glickenhaus resurrected 0846 on its original chassis. It will help me a great deal to make up my mind so please let us see it, Jim. Thank you.

 

Answered. Please would you direct the same comment to Jim who won't answer my very simple question: Where have Ferrari confirmed in writing that Jim Glickenhaus resurrected 0846 on its original chassis?

 

No offense, but honestly I don't think he cares what you think or cares to answer you.

Not trying to be a jerk but that is what I've gathered.

 

My guess is you're pretty much alone in thinking it may not be.

Anyone else here on this board think that Napolis's car is not 0846 resurrected?

How about a show of hands that think it is?

I for one believe that it is and that Napolis saved it from not being so by keeping it from the crusher. Wish there were more members like him that are concerned with constructing versus destructing Vintage Ferrari's.

 

Please do not misquote me. I have not said it's not 0846.

 

Other then Ferrari confirming in writing that it isn't 0846 please state your case where you have any doubt that it is not 0846.

Also please answer my previous question about the uprights?

 

I think it would be productive for you once and for all to present to the forum what YOU believe JG's car to ACTUALLY be, IYO.

The contrarian act is tired if it continues to be for its own sake and nothing more.

What do YOU believe JG's car is?

 

Yes.

The argument of I don't know what's happening gets boring.

I respect that you want to get to the bottom of this but at this point I think we need to know why you think it is and isn't 0846.

I feel that Napolis as well as other esteemed members have laid out a pretty clear case that it is. Clear it seems to everyone but you.

But if you think they may be wrong I can respect that.

But, please lay out why you think it is and isn't 0846?

For argument sake let's say no such letter from Ferrari exists or will ever exist. In light of this why do you think Napolis's car is and is not 0846?

 

From the partial quote (the quote did not begin with a capital letter) that Jim made, Ferrari have confirmed that his car is a fully rebuilt car, and as such, is not the original 0846. Please could we see the full communication so we can understand it in its correct capacity.

How does Ferrari making P4 uprights prove that Jim's car is 0846????

 

Would Ferrari cast uprights for just anyone?

Do you need to own the serial number of the car to get parts made?

I have never dealt with Classiche so I am not aware if they will?

If Nick Mason called up Classiche would they cast him a set of uprights for 0846?

 

There is no mention of the serial number 0846 or the name Jim Glickenhaus on the Ferrari New Jersey Invoice made out to Wide World of Cars for the supply of the P4 uprights and as such proves nothing.

 

Then

Would Ferrari cast uprights for anyone who didn't own the car?

Could Nick Mason get a pair if he wanted them?

Please answer the above questions from Ginge82 and V Vangool.

 

No idea to both questions.

 

So huge is that statement to make regarding the provenance/authenticity of Jim's car, I believe the forum needs to see the confirmation in writing. He who alleges must prove. Where's the proof of the confirmation in writing that Jim has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis? No proof after 2 weeks of asking so yes, it is very tiring. All Jim has to do is supply the proof and that will be the end of it.

 

Please answer the questions that Ginge82 and I proposed...

I'm not sure how it's done in England but in America we believe in reasonable doubt. I think the general consensus is that Napolis has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the car is what he says it is. But... Maybe it's not? But... Until you can present some sort of case that it isn't I just don't see any of the members believing your case holds much water, that being it may or may not be 0846. It's a wishy washy premise with no base in what most think is reality.

BTW not sure exactly how classiche works but I'm pretty sure they are not making anything for anybody that does not own the car.

 

[From Pages 63-64 of the pdf - where the emphasis really hammers home the point of departure of P3/4 0846 from it's P3 and P4 Brothers and Sisters.]

The following is taken from the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.
0846"

The only car in all the Technical Data Sheets labeled "330 P3/P4"

" -330 P3/P4 -
SCHEDA TECNICA" (TECHNICAL DATA SHEET)

330 P3/P4 (1967)
Telaio N 0846
Trasformazione di un modello P3 secondo le caratteristiche del modello P4.
TELAIO
Telaio Tipo 593/603. Trasformazione della parte posteriore tubolare del
telaio per i nuovi putoni del motore
Tipo 237."

"330 P3/P4 (1967)
Chassis n. 0846

Transformation of a P3 model according to the characteristics of the P4
model.
Chassis
Type 593/603. Transformation of the tubular part at the rear of the chassis
for new Type 237 [P4] engine mountings."

This transformation of 593/603 P3 to P4 is clearly visible on my chassis and doesn't exist
on 0900, 0900a, or 0856 as they are built to the 1967 P4 chassis blueprints. By comparing
my chassis with P3 0844, one can see how this transformation from P3 to P4 was done.

[The other crucial difference is a certain 12 mm - mentioned later in the pdf.]

 

The invoice for the supply of the P4 upright is from Ferrari New Jersey, not Ferrari Classiche or Ferrari S.p.A.

 

The new uprights were cast YEARS before the Classiche Department.

You would indeed have to confirm the serial number of car you were working on, unless P3 and P4 were all the same.

Really, you have missed something in reviewing all of the open documents, if you fail to "catch" what Ferrari's official posture was. Seriously?

You must not understand International Law, or Italians, if that is the case.

Jim's car openly travels the world with it's "Identity", without an asterisk on the carnet.
In these days and stressful times, that alone is an entirely legal confirmation of it's status.

You no longer bull&^%&%t at the border, hiding blondes in the trunk.
Not happening...

 

They didn't cast them in NJ, trust me...

 

Yep. It's not only been back home, but . . .

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/60928-0846-002c-%40-historic-targa-florio.html#post134962658 - 11th post.