Malaysia Airlines loses contact with B777-200 / MH370 enroute from KUL to PEK

Our enemies have a long term view and are not afraid to think outside the box, as we learned from 9/11. If it was hijacked and what we see is intentional and not a botched mission, then we should not assume they would only be interested in visibility and/or immediate use. Once free of those assumptions, what could be gained from this "experiment"? You would learn you could take a plane the size of a 777 and disappear, for one, despite radar and satellite technology. Before this, we all assumed this could not be done. Once you know it can be done, then what use could you make of that info if you have ill intent?

 

Re : Hijackers / Terrorists

If they were that talented, that organized, that methodical, that dedicated, and that disciplined about their approach to mayhem......they would be doing more damage throughout the world.

I would not underestimate them --- I would not overestimate them, either.

 

" Easily done" ? Hardly.

In addition there is no reason whatsoever to fly at 45000 feet even if the aircraft could do it (which it can't).

An altitude of 45000ft is not only well above the altitude this aircraft could fly based on it's weight that night, but it's well above the service ceiling of the 777. I've flown the 767 at 43000 ft a few times. The service ceiling is 43199 ft (99 feet higher than the 777). I can tell you that it's not easy with very little margin between stall buffet and mach buffet; only a handful of knots actually. You have to be very light on a very cold day to fly at 43000 feet. Zooming higher means you have to have either excess power or some excess airspeed and there is nearly none of that available. Yes, you could over-temp the engines or perhaps if the aircraft were empty you might make it, but it is highly unlikely and certainly nothing this particular 777 could have done under the circumstances.

The 45000 foot data came from a military surface search radar near it's maximum range, so you can discount that as being totally unreliable. Don't believe everything you hear.

Furthermore, depressurizing the aircraft at any altitude above about 20000 feet will make many passengers pass out in a matter of seconds because many won't even put on their drop down mask. Those who put their masks on may have more time, but even the best of them won't last long after the oxygen runs out after about 20 minutes. At altitudes above 35000 feet you need not even bother to grab your passenger mask. You'll be incapacitated in a matter of seconds with or without the mask. At that altitude and higher the oxygen pressure in the air, even breathing 100% oxygen, is so low that it won't pass into the blood stream. The pilots have masks which allow pressure breathing (where oxygen is forced into the mask above ambient pressure) but under the best of circumstances pressure breathing is very dangerous and only feasible only long enough for an emergency decent.

Bottom line: The 45000 foot figure is total BS.

 

Gotta love the real world replies. Thanks guys. (Although this is the aviation thread)

By sending large recovery ships to the area off Australia, is there reason to think 'they' know more than they are saying?

 

Yes.

 

For a really great laugh, did any one see NSNBC news last night, they had the travel editor of Conde Naste magazine interviewed last night. He said, if the Malaysian flight continued after loosing contact, the right engine would "run out of gas", then the lost thrust would cause the plane to crash. I laughed for 20 minutes straight! They really need to interview a pilot who knows aircraft systems, not a passenger who isn't a pilot. Sad, and really poor reporting .
Gary Bobileff

 

Brings me back to watching the kids movie 'Madagascar' with my sons.
While flying a commercial airliner copilot penguin says to pilot penguin something like, "Captain we are out of fuel!" Pilot,"How do you know?" Copilot penguin,"Engine one has stopped running and engine two is no longer on fire." lmao

 

Every plane goes out of coverage over the ocean. Spy satellites aren't watching the thousands of airplanes that criss cross the skies. Nobody cares. You're way over thinking this.

 

Agreed.

 

I'll say that I think Australia jumped the gun and, just like other countries, has reported potentially erroneous speculative information. They should have waited until they were 100% sure that these floating objects were from an aircraft, and which portions of the aircraft.

Everyone is so desperate to say "I found it" that it just seems like more speculative information is coming out vs. factual information.

 

Can you disable the black boxes from the cockpit???

 

only with a big bomb!
Gary Bobileff

 

What sort of "black boxes" are you talking about?

I don't think you can disable the CVR and FDR, although they may have circuit breakers... but in any event, why bother?

Or do you mean something else?

Does the CVR on the 777 have an "erase" button?

 

The CVR and FDR...They tried to cover everything else, Maybe they pulled the circuit breakers from the cockpit so when and if they find the airplane it will not have the answers they are hoping for........Stirring the pot

 

I have never flown that route but utilizing that info your hypothesis may indeed be correct.

 

After this is GPS going to be added to black boxes?

 

Passenger O2 mask only last 3 to 5 mins, not 20.
You are correect, at that altitude You need positive pressure mask.

 

How about 'onstar' services .

 

Yes, I understand stall margins and operating altitudes. I fly Boeings for a living (although not the 777). I have flown at 45000. Can you fly above maximum altitude...yes. Would you want to...no.

My thoughts were this......

I heard that they went up to 45000 for a short time.
Why would you do this? Exactly like you and I said. There's not enough oxygen. Therefore a short climb followed by depressurization would basically eliminate the passengers in the cabin.

If you were taking the airplane, and didn't care about the passengers, this climb to 45,000 may make sense.

Anyways, just my thoughts on why a possible terrorist would climb that high for a short duration.
As I said earlier, I hope I'm wrong.

Im not trying to debate 777 altitude capabilies or whether this plane climbed to 45000. Just trying to offer an explanation as to why it may have.

 

I initially doubted the 777 could get up to 45000 feet, but if it was momentary and perhaps they sacrificed the engines envelope it might have happened.

They were only an hour out at TOC so they weren't light.

Accuracy of the radar is likely more of the suspect.

Either way, the positive pressure o2 comes into play at either altitude in question.

Even if this turns out to not involve a depress this incident has given the "bad guys" a solution to UA93.

 

I guess my thought is that those are irrelevant in a terrorist situation, because by the time the airplane has crashed, it's either completed it's mission or failed to. Either way, the terrorists are dead.

 

Correct. We look just as stupid as Malaysia now ... fools.
Pete

 

Dunno, im feeling pretty dumb....I stayed up for four hours into the wee hours of the morning waiting for the affirmative confirmation from the news. It never came, it never came!

 

I think the standard is 12 but the 330s are 22. If you look at an airplane flying at 41K and you depressurize the goal is to get the jet down to 10000 wher O2 is no longer required. Also realize there are many restricted critical terrain routes that can require the airplane to fly a certain distance to clear terrain that is more than 10000'. So if at 41K and need to get down to 10k it takes longer than 5 mins.

 

I think your 3 to 5 minute figure is too short. As long as we're picking nits, here is the FAR:

"(2) When an airplane is operated at flight altitudes up to and including flight level 250 and cannot descend safely to a flight altitude of 14,000 feet within four minutes, or when an airplane is operated at flight altitudes above flight level 250, oxygen must be available at the rate prescribed by this part for not less than 10 percent of the passenger cabin occupants for the entire flight after cabin depressurization, at cabin pressure altitudes above 10,000 feet up to and including 14,000 feet and, as applicable, to allow compliance with § 121.329(c) (2) and (3), except that there must be not less than a 10-minute supply for the passenger cabin occupants."

Now if you can figure out what that actually means and how it translates into "real people language", you're a better man than I; however, it is quite clear that passenger oxygen must last more than 3 to 5 minutes. And where did they come up with that specification of enough oxygen for 10% of the passengers? First class only? What about the rest of the poor slobs back in steerage?

Most aircraft use a gaseous bottled oxygen system and nearly all of them provide oxygen to the masks only after the mask is pulled down to open the individual valve in the overhead. So depending on how many people are actually onboard and using that oxygen, the duration will vary considerably; i.e. with only one person on board, it will last a long long time.

The typical figure quoted for passenger oxygen is 20 minutes and it's that figure which is the correct answer on the typical airline annual safety exam. But, obviously that is subject to several variables. Is that 20 minute figure obtained by assuming that only half the passengers will correctly use the masks? Or do Boeing aircraft have larger O2 bottles than required by the FARs? I really don't know. But, obviously that 20 minute number is subject to several variables. But in any case passengers can expect the oxygen to last at least 10 minutes as required by the FARs, not 3 to 5 minutes, not that it will do much good in most cases.

But the real points are:
1) The passengers won't automatically die if the aircraft flies above 45 thousand feet (even if MH370 could have done that, which it could not on that particular night).

2) The masks would not drop unless the cabin were depressurized.

3) If the aim was to kill the passengers, depressurizing at any altitude above 35000 feet would incapacitate them in a matter of seconds and kill them in a matter of minutes.