The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think you need more. I would say at least 80% to call a car original.

I fully understand a fender etc may get replaced over the life of a car that is understandable. Rubber components, exhaust systems and other consumable items. It stops being original when you have to cobble together a bunch of other tubes for the chassis to make it whole, have other main pieces made to fit because they no longer exist, fab up an interior etc.

Haveing the chassis number is one thing. But to build a car around that number where the majority of the parts never came from that chassis, does
Not make that car original. Nor should it be stated as such.

 

The chassis number plate 0846 is not original.

 

Ok.. That is interesting. How do you know this?

 

Fully disclosed, as usual:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142607399-post6492.html

 

See below:
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As far as Ferrari are concerned, they disposed of 0846, not destroyed it. Throwing something in the trash where it can be grabbed by someone else and used again is very different from destroying something to the point where it can never be used.

As for you stating that 0846 is a recreation and not a complete car, how do you feel about a customer that totals their Enzo and has Ferrari build them another one, new chassis and all, but reusing the same VIN so as not to create a "new" car? Does that customer no longer own a "real" Ferrari since it is not the same car that originally left the factory?

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In the Enzo's case, it should be classified as a re-vin. The car that originally belonged to that number is gone and finished. It is by all accounts a different car altogether and should be valued as such.

 

But in Jim's case he has A LOT more of the original car still intact than some customers do of their "re-vin" Enzos. And yet Ferrari still considers these new Enzos original Ferraris and treats them as such. They do not consider them "recreations", a word which gives the connotation of a kit car.

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Gentlemen,

This thread is so old that the pictures won't come up on the first pages, or at least that's what I think. I can't get pictures on the front of this thread. Strange.

 

Server crash back in the day. It was a doozy.

 

Kit car is quite different. And I think you know that. A car that has been destroyed, is just that destroyed. If you manage to pull a chassis number out of the rubble and stick it to a new car, that does not make that new car the old one. It can't.

It would be like me finding an original 275 chassis number, and sticking it on a 330. Just because the 330 has a 275 chassis number, does not make it a 275.

 

I do now remember reading that..thanks.

 

They didn't pull a chassis number out of the rubble, they pulled out the chassis itself (or at least a large portion of it) and repaired it.

I'm not sure what the point was of the 275/330 analogy was as that's not what happened here at all. They found a chassis and rebuilt the car that pertained to that chassis, not some other model.

And Jim can call his car 0846 because Ferrari (and the courts) say he can. That is not the same as someone calling a car some random model name just because they feel like it.

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My guess is that 0846 is as authentic as pretty much any old race car out there that has seen battle.

To me the bulk of the chassis is more important then a number plate but that is up to an individuals interpretation.

I'd have to also guess that Strolls car is as outstanding of an example as anyone could hope to have.

But to say that any of these cars retain 80% of their original parts is anyone guess, as I'd bet that parts flew around the shop quite freely between cars.

For all we know a good amount of 0846's parts ended up on 0856 and vise versa and the same is possible with other P cars that raced together where the parts were interchangeable.

I think the important thing is that the cars survived and are intact and will now live on.

Watching the build of 0846, I'd have to argue that very little can be considered un-original to race car standards of the day.

I feel that calling it a recreation undermines the fact that very little is not as it was in the day. Even if it was built from a bin of spares.

 

"Scrapped" is not "Destroyed". The "scrapped" chassis was recovered & the rest is living history. The provenance therefore exists in legally recognized form.

Ford J1 and J2 - now those chassis were destroyed - as they weren't scrapped - they were shredded. The chassis are nothing but ancient history. Yet Ford did let Holman and Moody keep Titles.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner J5 is in Ford Museum. Lacks chassis plate, original engine, radiator, steering wheel - lotsa stuff. Sadly, Ford has neglected it & . . . ugh.

 

Interesting post I rediscovered near the beginning of this thread ...

Note you cannot fit a P3 engine in a P4 chassis ...

And here is a great post providing useful links to the old FerrariChat site: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/103255-post186.html

And ...

Pete

 

Nobody owns chassis number #0846. This number is death and nobody can make this very number alive or "own" it, after its creator himself brought it to death. This is a fact and all the rest is wonderful speculation, irrelevant legend and clever marketing. Anyhow, it shouldn't be stopped and can be enjoyed in this marvelous thread to the fullest.

 

Are you sure that Ferrari (not the courts) have actually said he can use the chassis number 0846 or is it the case that they haven't actually said anything?

 

If it exists how is it not alive?

 

What exists after Ferrari eliminated it's identity and brought it to death?

 

The car made from the parts Ferrari failed to eliminate.

The mob can stab a guy and throw him in a ditch, If that guy shows up at the trial he's not dead.

 

Posts like this reveal to me that you have not gone back to the very beginning of this thread and read it in its entirety.

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Read the thread. The entire thread.

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So you stand by saying that Ferrari have actually said Jim Glickenhaus can use the chassis number 0846 rather than they haven't said anything regarding him using it. If they have then fine. My question was a reasonable one.

 

Dead is dead and remains dead and DP's use of some remains and its later discovery does not change this fact. Some remains were later used and became a sensational but new car with a new identity, after Ferrari brought #0846 and its chassis number - without any intention to "resurrect" it - to death.