The Michael Schumacher Career/Injury/Recovery Thread | Page 100 | FerrariChat

The Michael Schumacher Career/Injury/Recovery Thread

Discussion in 'F1' started by NürScud, Dec 29, 2013.

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  1. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    An apartment guest was asking about a small picture, under a magnet, on my front door interior.

    I said, "That's to remind me every day I walk out, to pray for him."

    That's the thing we can do.

    She then recognized the Marlboro logo on my desktop picture, which was from the "red leather pants" series...you guys know the ONE!
    :D :D :D
     
  2. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Well said.....I agree totally. The press is generally scum.
     
  3. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2005
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    Firstly, let me get this straight.

    1. We don't even know who this 'expert' is.

    2. Weight loss is normal when you are not well, recovering etc. Don't forget, Michael is a sportsman. he does lots of weightlifting, which in turn, contributes to muscle building. And with great cardio, Michael has very less body fat percentage, which probably in the 10%-16% fat region for most sportsmen.

    Now, when you are not well, recovering, sick, etc, the first thing to lose, or drop away is your muscle mass. Not your fat. Muscle mass. Which is probably what is happening to MS right now. Is it normal? Probably yes, taking into account the circumstances.

    Would i be panic? I think hardly. This is all in the process. Those muscles and body weight can be gained in no time. Now the focus will be on his ongoing recovery.
     
  4. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    While I understand what you are saying, the words "in no time" are a little bit hopeful.

    Let's just hope he wakes up and recognizes those around him. That would be a major victory. If he can sit up in a couple of weeks, again, a victory.

    Small step, folks. Small steps.
     
  5. Fiorano57

    Fiorano57 Formula 3
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    Dec 23, 2010
    1,689
    I hope for Michaels recovery but we have not heard one shread of good news in almost 3 months time. People on here are slammed for not thinking positive and the press is called scum but honestly how can anyone expect something good barring a medical miracle?
    Some of the docs on board here and the former F1 doc have even cast doubt on Michaels outcome so why all the silence from the family?; Its not because he is running laps around the hospital. Its because the docs are trying fruitlessly everything in their power and Michaels family has the funds for that to happen.
    A lesser ,read,financially handicapped patient would probably not have had the same team helping them but it looks as if the outcome will be the same anyway.
    There is only one reason why the family has clammed up and everyone knows its not the press. I guess Iam just a realist which I know I will be flamed for.
     
  6. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Under the current circumstances I'm just hoping and praying for the best possible outcome
     
  7. VisualHomage

    VisualHomage F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2006
    5,611
    San Antonio
    You are correct.

    Prayer notwithstanding, the fact that nothing good has come out in the media + nothing has been officially stated by the family of any relevant change in Michael's state indicates that MS is physically a vegetable. Can that change? Sure it can. Is he secretly riding horses and playing golf? No.
     
  8. Remy Zero

    Remy Zero Two Time F1 World Champ

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    Yeap!
     
  9. Wolfgang5150

    Wolfgang5150 F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
    4,706
    Great message from DC
    David Coulthard (Driver), 24 March - Dear Michael, first of all I am so very sorry that you have found yourself in this situation, sorry for your family, lead by Corinna and all the pain they must be experiencing as you make your recovery. When I reflect on our racing together I am filled with a number of emotions. This is because I met 3 Michaels during our time racing together. First of all the family man, remember when we ended up riding horses whilst taking time off in Australia, near to Cairns? or the after party in Hockenheim when we ended up singing karaoke together? Petra went in the pool at the end of the night! The racer, unbelievably committed and undeniably the fastest of our generation and that’s not taking into account all the records broken along the way! The blunt sportsman! On reflecting I feel it wouldn’t be correct not to acknowledge the few differences of opinion that we had along the way! I will always remember Spa 98 when you arrived at my garage during the race dragging Jean Todt as he tried to stop you entering the Mclaren garage! Racing against you brought out the best in all of us, I can say without fear of contradiction that your talent, your commitment and the support of your nearest and dearest took you to a level that most of us could only dream. You gave my career credibility and made me work harder, drive faster and achieve more than I would have done with lesser competition. I have always admired your speed and commitment and I look forward to being able to reminisce over a Bacardi and coke about how the kids today don’t know how difficult we had it in our day ! Michael, I am thinking of you and your family, praying that this situation can be over and life can return to normal. With my greatest respect, DC.
     
  10. crinoid

    crinoid F1 Veteran
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    Great stuff from DC.
     
  11. furoni

    furoni F1 World Champ

    Jun 6, 2011
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    Great message from Dc..never liked the guy but i think when these thinks happen, everyone thinks twice and tryes to forget the bad things...it was a beutifull message from his part.
    AS for the weight lost, i once broke my arm badly after being run over by a car and in the week i spent at the hospital i literaly lost all of my muscle in the imobilizzed arm!! So it seems pretty normal that someone completly still for such a long time loses a lot of weight and muscle....
    The odds are against him but will keep on pushing as we always did.
     
  12. Andrew D.

    Andrew D. F1 Rookie

    Jul 6, 2008
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    I wish him a full recovery too. As Ive said before,a 45 year old brain is not an old brain, but it is a very old brain for recovering from trauma. Ive seen lots of kids make miraculous recoveries but almost no old brains. I hope the family have his best interests in mind, which may very well be to withdraw treatment.
     
  13. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    It is OK to say this. Some of us appreciate this type of assessment and know you mean MS no harm--you are just calling it straight.



    I have met DC a number of times. He is always polite and considerate of others. I believe this is a sincere sentiment on his behalf. (Even though it is a bit grandstanding.)
     
  14. TheMayor

    TheMayor Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Vegas baby

    The press is scum. That's why.

    And it's none of your business. That's another reason.
     
  15. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    +1M
     
  16. ME308

    ME308 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
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    very interesting piece from Gary Hartstein on his blog today

    A Former F1 Doc Writes | Thoughts about motorsport (and maybe other stuff . . .)


    Odds and ends

    Well it’s been a long time, hasn’t it? As always, I follow your comments closely, both here and on Twitter, and I think it’s time to address some of the points that have been raised recently, and perhaps clarify a few definitions (nothing new here, pretty sure this stuff was covered in earlier posts) – simply because I’ve got a feeling that we’ll be hearing some of them at some point in the not-distant future. More on this later.

    WEIGHT LOSS

    I’ve been asked about the report that Michael has lost 25% of his pre-accident weight.

    This is entirely possible, and in fact, probable. A few factors explain this. First, the initial injury, operations, and those few harrowing weeks when Michael’s life itself hung in the balance, minute-to-minute. This kind of situation subjects the body to a tremendous level of stress. Not psychological stress, mind you, but physical stress, accompanied by liberation of massive quantities of stress hormones. These hormones evolved for the “fight or flight” response, and were designed by evolution to promptly mobilise fuel for action. They do this by causing (among other things) breakdown of muscle to form amino acids, which the body can use as fuel. The problem is that when these stress hormones remain present for too long, it becomes very difficult if not impossible to replace the lost muscle mass, at least in the short term.

    So Michael’s muscle mass was already fairly significantly depleted by the time sedation was stopped. At this point, what is usually called disuse atrophy starts eating away at the muscles. Since a patient in coma has very little, if any, movement, the muscles lose the mechanical stimulus that is a major factor in maintaining them during normal day-to-day activity. And although coma patients get intensive physical therapy, this is aimed at preventing the joints from stiffening, not at maintaining (or building) muscle mass.

    There may well be a more subtle contributing factor as well. You see, the normal brain kicks out growth hormone at night, during our sleep. This hormone helps the body to build and maintain itself, notably by helping the muscles take up protein. It is entirely possible, even probable, that this pulsed pattern of secretion is lost (any neurosurgeons reading this, or neurologists, anyone in the know, just jump in!) in patients who no longer have sleep-wake cycles. It’s even possible that secretion of the hormone falls to very low levels chronically. This would also have the effect of taking away an important “trophic” stimulus.

    Happily, the consequences are not particularly dramatic, at least immediately. To be blunt, a patient in coma doesn’t really NEED his or her muscles . . . with the exception of the diaphragm. The diaphragm, which like the heart is pretty much always active, resists atrophy rather better than other muscles, but it does atrophy. And having a machine doing the breathing for you is one of the best ways to see how disuse atrophy affects the diaphragm too. Unfortunately, and assuming (as I have until now) that Michael is being ventilated by a respirator, there is probably some degree of diaphragmatic atrophy at this point.

    Now remember where Michael is coming from – one of the fittest, toned, and conditioned 45 year-old men on the planet. This means that if and when he can be weaned from mechanical ventilation, re-training his diaphragm shouldn’t be problematic. As for the rest of his muscle mass, should he awaken, the same ferocious appetite for pushing himself will no doubt lead him back to most of his former superb condition.

    TRANSFER

    I’ve also been asked why Michael hasn’t been transferred to a unit closer to his home.

    Obviously I have no idea of the answer to this question, but several factors need to be considered.

    First, from a medical point of view, once we’re out of the phase with dramatic and life-threatening elevated intracranial pressure, and barring other significant problems causing physiologic instability, the patient can be transferred arbitrarily far. The transfer needs to be prepared carefully, of course, but even hours-long flights are possible with intubated, ventilated patients such as Michael. So why is he still in Grenoble? I’m basing myself on the notion that Michael is still in the Intensive Care Unit, and is still being ventilated.

    First of all, it clearly shows that his entourage is totally confident with the quality of care Michael is receiving.

    It’s important to remember that Intensive Care Unit (ICU) beds are a very limited resource. Every day intensivists are asked to admit critically ill patients to units whose beds are all filled. This requires TRIAGE – deciding who has the best chance of being improved by being admitted to the unit. The “chronically critically ill”, patients like Michael who depend on technology (a ventilator) to stay alive, are a tremendous conundrum for ICU personnel. As time goes on (more detail below), it becomes less and less likely that Michael will emerge to any significant extent. Therefore, I think it is inevitable that should the status quo continue, the ICU staff may well, at some point in the not-distant future, decide that the patient they’ve just been asked to admit has a higher need for that bed than Michael, given his clinical situation and prognosis. This then could be a reason to organise a transfer – to a private clinic, or to an ICU-like environment that his entourage could build at his home.

    Lastly, as I’ve mentioned furtively here and there, I think that serious lapses in judgement were evident during Michael’s initial management (I have this from usually impeccable sources who have access to this information). Because these lapses could (and almost certainly did) worsen the outcome in Michael’s case, it is possible that the staff at Grenoble feel duty-bound to NOT place any pressure on the family to transfer out, despite the terribly dismal prognosis . . . because of the clear (but unquantifiable) contribution of medical misjudgement to that prognosis.

    (RE) DEFINITIONS

    I think it’s useful to look at a few definitions again, briefly, for when this all starts to get talked about in the press, as I’m sure it will be fairly soon.

    Brain Death: A brain-dead patient is dead. There is objective, demonstrable, and irreversible cessation of ALL brain function. When you use arteriography (special x-rays that show the arteries and the flow in them) to look at the blood flow to the brain, you see that there is NO BLOOD FLOW AT ALL inside the cranial vault. There is no reaction to any stimuli except for simple reflexes (which originate at the spinal level), and the patient will not breathe spontaneously, even when carbon dioxide levels are elevated. There are no living brain cells in the skull. None. At all. Families do not have to approve disconnecting these patients, as they actually are no longer patients, they are . . . dead. These are the patients who become, under certain well-defined circumstances, organ donors. Because the brain, all of it, is needed for the body to survive satisfactorily, the hearts of brain dead patients will not continue to beat more than a few days or weeks (a few cases of longer circulatory persistence have been described but this is vanishingly rare), despite the most aggressive treatment possible.

    Coma: coma is defined as a state where the patient shows neither wakefulness nor awareness. So the patient in a coma has closed eyes, shows no evidence of a “sleep/wake” cycle, and shows absolutely no sign of any awareness of (or interaction with) either the environment or him/herself. Even painful stimuli fail to cause meaningful interaction. Depending on the areas that are damaged, these patients may or may not breathe on their own. That said, they will essentially always be intubated, and then tracheotomised, to prevent episodes of airway obstruction caused by the brain being unable to coordinate the muscles of the tongue, pharynx and voice box. They are initially fed by a tube passed through the nose to the stomach, and later (as is no doubt the case with Michael) by a tube placed directly into the stomach or small intestine through the abdominal wall. Usually a coma is defined as persistent when it has lasted more than two months after the precipitating event. For info, I assume this is Michael’s current status.

    Whereas brain death is inevitably followed by circulatory death within days to weeks, patients in a persistent coma have somewhat brain function, especially in areas associated with maintenance of physiological stability (body temperature, blood pressure, water volume, etc). This means that the life expectancy for a comatose patient who does not improve neurologically is measured in months to a relatively few years. Once again, the brain is necessary to integrate those of the body’s activities which contribute to a normal lifespan.

    Persistent vegetative state: here we must distinguish two things that almost always go together: wakefulness and awareness. Patients in a persistent vegetative state show signs of “wakefulness”, in that they have periods of spontaneous eye opening, and can even show cycles that resemble sleep-wake cycles. They are, however, unaware. There is a total, rigorous lack of any sign of self awareness (including pain, other than reflex responses, thirst, etc) or of the environment. These patients often breathe for themselves.

    A vegetative state is defined as persistent when it lasts two months after the precipitating event. As we’ve mentioned previously, the longer one remains in a vegetative state, the less the likelihood of emerging, and the higher the chances of severe sequelae if the patient does in fact emerge. Most definitions consider the vegetative state to be permanent one year after the injury.

    Patients who are in a persistent/permanent vegetative state have lifespans that are measured in months to a few years. This depends on baseline function (extraordinary in the case of Michael, of course), the quality of nursing care, and other imponderables. They usually die of respiratory or urinary infections. Longer survivals have been described, but are exceptional.

    Minimally conscious state: here, as with the vegetative state, there is wakefulness. But here, there are signs, inconsistent, variable, but clear, objective, and reproducible signs of awareness: interaction with the environment and/or of self. Like what? Eye tracking, motor responses, smiling, turning the head consistently to voices, etc. Or appropriate reactions to stimuli. This state can also be persistent; it is significant because it represents the first stage out of the vegetative state on the continuum towards normal consciousness . . . and the first interactions the entourage sees from their loved one.

    Minimally conscious patients also have a severely shortened life expectancy, but not quite as dismal as for “deeper” levels of disordered consciousness.

    PERSONAL NOTE

    I always knew Michael was adored. I spent years at circuits drenched in red by the ferrari caps, flags, and shirts, and all of that for Michael. I’m still staggered by the depth and persistence of his fans’ love for him. And whereas I worried more than a bit about what was going to happen when and if really bad news got announced, I’ve realised that perhaps the lack of status updates has given us all a chance to move on a bit, to process what’s happening, and to start to . . . detach. And I think this is probably one of the unexpected “benefits” to the media strategy chosen by Michael’s family. Somehow, I get the feeling that people are going to be ok, no matter what happens, because they’ve now had the time to process this all. I just regret that to get here, you’ve all had to work through feeling abandoned. That will go away too. I hope.
     
  17. sammysaber

    sammysaber Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2011
    553
    Thanks for that.

    This part is pretty heartbreaking :

    "Lastly, as I’ve mentioned furtively here and there, I think that serious lapses in judgement were evident during Michael’s initial management (I have this from usually impeccable sources who have access to this information). Because these lapses could (and almost certainly did) worsen the outcome in Michael’s case, it is possible that the staff at Grenoble feel duty-bound to NOT place any pressure on the family to transfer out, despite the terribly dismal prognosis . . . because of the clear (but unquantifiable) contribution of medical misjudgement to that prognosis."

    And let's not even mention his personal note in the end...
     
  18. moretti

    moretti Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Agree, but they do have a positive effect on the current day morals such as exposing scams and fraudulent activities of politicians, lawyers, doctors, etc.

    If they just stuck to the facts instead of speculation the quality would improve

    (obviously I'm a dreamer and optimist :eek: )
     
  19. Drive550PFB

    Drive550PFB Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't like the press, and I think that many of them are scum. But I hesitate to put them all in one basket. But, hey, I'm a lawyer and cringe when I hear people ask me "Are you AC or DC?" (Ambulance Chaser or Divorce Chaser). I am neither. And I recognize that many lawyers are scum until you need one. Then they are your best friend.

    But let me ask this . . . if the President of the US were, say, on a bicycle and fell and hit his head and went to the hospital, does anyone outside the family have a right to know about his condition? (I assume you will say 'yes' because he took the job willingly and he affects the lives of the public.)

    OK, let's drill down a bit. How about a Governor? How about a Mayor of a city?

    OK, one more . . . let's say you are a shareholder in a company and the Chief Executive is sick with, say, liver cancer or pancreas cancer, and he undergoes a secret multi-organ transplant . . . do we as public shareholders have a right to know? (This actually happened with Steve Jobs.)

    While I understand that the family is being gutted with grief and tension, I wonder if their situation is not made worse by speculation, rather than a controlled news release. Michael, as the ultimate control freak, would likely want to control the news and information rather than being the subject of speculation. But, that's just my opinion.
     
  20. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

    Sep 25, 2006
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    #2495 Fast_ian, Mar 24, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
    +1

    I'd be a little happier if I knew he was even breathing by himself!

    That Sabine hasn't even confirmed that 'rumor' I find alarming. :(

    How do you know what they're trying is 'fruitless'? Have you seen him? Are you an attending physician? Have you seen any brain scans?

    That they're still trying is reason enough to hope, surely?

    As has now been noted many times, they've always been an intensely private family, and if they wish to be left alone, that's their choice. Frustrating for us, sure, but nothing to do with us either. We should simply accept their wishes at this time. If that's silence, so be it.

    As has also been said many times now, you can bet he has the very best 'medical contingency' contract(s) in existence. If he were in such bad shape that those need to be invoked I'm certain Corinna would honor his wishes and do whatever it takes to honor them. That this hasn't happened must surely give us just a little hope, no?

    I'm not flaming 'realism', we all know the situation is very, very, dire. That's realistic, I accept that of course. What I do object to is people with no knowledge of the situation saying 'it's hopeless', 'they should pull the plug', 'his doctors are wasting their time' and so on.

    Until Sabine, Corinna or his docs say anything, I for one am holding on to hope.

    Godspeed Michael,
    Ian
     
  21. RS man

    RS man Formula Junior

    Nov 30, 2008
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    I would be interested to know what these lapses were.
     
  22. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    To be clear. Are you comparing Michael Schumacher to a public servant or to someone with a legal fiduciary responsibility?
     
  23. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    G-O-O-D question!..... ;)

    As just about every sane person realizes, he's neither of course.

    He's an intensely private individual who's always been very protective of his family. He owes us fans nothing. And he certainly doesn't owe any 'shareholders' anything or have a fiduciary responsibility to anyone......

    Godspeed Michael,
    Ian
     
  24. TheMayor

    TheMayor Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Vegas baby
    Michael Schumacher is NOT the president of the US. The health of the president has a lot of influence and worry for people all over the world.

    Michael Schumacher is NOT Steve Jobs leading one of the largest capitalized companies in the US with millions of stockholders worried their investments may crumble.

    In fact, Jobs did EXACTLY this. He didn't want the press to know and still to this day we don't know a lot. Why? Because Steve Jobs wanted it that way.


    Michael is a private citizen. His sphere of influence is with this family. He has a right to privacy as does his family and children.

    You question Apples vs oranges by bringing up CEO's and politicians.
     
  25. barbazza

    barbazza Formula 3
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    What??? But I bought a hat!!!
     

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