The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Can I just remind all the "newbies" that this car/chassis has been discussed on this site for now 12 years. I'm no longer watching this thread because it is amazing how many people are stirring the ***** instead of putting a bit of effort in and reading the research that has already been completed over the last [size=+2]12[/size] years.

Do some research and ALL your questions will be answered. I've tried to help by posting a very useful post that was created by another FerrariChat user to link all the old FerrariChat posts together. Saying that I have read the dosier so I no questions ...

Man Jim you must have the patience of a saint. I would have told many to go and **** off days ago.

My conclusion is that Piper, always one to use money wisely, managed to purchase the remains or chassis from #0846, knowingly or not but it suited him down to the ground because he had P3 and P4 engines he could play with. Back in those days #0846 would have been worth the equivalent of a tin of dog food and he was not remotely interested in chassis numbers. The car built was #0003 as far as he was concerned, and heck while he is hands on I'm not sure whether that constitutes welding chassis tubes, etc.

But we have Marcel identifying the chassis from #0846 with Piper in the 70's and we have another witness seeing #0003 with a P3 engine, and Jim bought #0003 ... there is a logical answer here.

This obsession with chassis numbers and values of old Ferraris did not exist back in the days when these cars were just retired old racing cars.
Pete

 

True. We may take your advise and field a two car team and enter other races. The least you can do is come to the Ring in 2015 and wrench...

Cheers!

 

Sir, did you ever receive an answer to this question?

Dale

 

No, Sir I did not.

Neither did I receive an answer to the question where did Ferrari in writing confirm that Jim Glickenhaus resurrected 0846 on its original chassis, as he has stated.

 

I may have missed it, so sorry if the answer has been posted earlier.

What is the break down of original vs remanufactured parts in 0846?

What percentage of the chassis is original. How many parts were installed on this car that were not on it originally?

Brake calipers, interior, body, suspension components, lighting, gauges, engine, gearbox, nuts and bolts, gas filler, etc..

Would it be safe to say 80% of 0846 exists in Jim's car?

 

It has been stated numerous times by others and I will say it once more: The answers to ALL of your questions are in this thread, but obviously you can't be bothered to read it and want to have others do the work for you. All these topics have already been covered in detail YEARS ago.

READ THE THREAD!

It took me over a week to go through it but it is a fascinating read and a journey through history.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM THE COPIED COMMENTS I PASTED. CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO BOLD OR UNDERLINE ETC.

IT"S FUNNY THAT YOU BRING UP 80%....

FROM:
330 P3 s/n 0846

"In July 2002 James Glickenhaus bought a car from David Piper that both he and David thought was a replica P4 built on a replica chassis to P4 chassis blueprints that had been given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari. After removing 1000 rivets, dissembling everything, stripping the chassis, researching the Ferrari build sheets and comparing the frame with 412P 0844, 412P 0850, 412P 0854, P4 0856, and P4 replica chassis 0900, 0900a, and 0900c Glickenhaus discovered that the car he had bought contained approximately 80+% of the original P3 chassis of 0846 modified to accept a P4 engine exactly as described in: "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET' of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.0846". As it is impossible to build a P3 Chassis from P4 Blueprints it now seems likely that:

"After Le Mans 1967 0846 was returned to the Ferrari factory where it was deconstructed, investigated and scrapped. "

ALSO...

"Dear Mr. Glickenhaus,

We wish to thank you for the extensive dossier you have sent regarding the above mentioned vehicle that as confirmed on our letter dated October 5th, we have examined in detail. The car was built on February 1966 as a P3 version and during its racing period, officially managed by the Factory, it went though several modifications in order to race the 24 hours of Daytona in 1967 as a P3/4. We also confirm that, as reported in your dossier, the car caught fire during the 24 hours of Le Mans. It was then totally dismantled and because of the extended damages detected, the factory decided not to perform any repair and to write off the chassis no. 0846. If some of the remaining components such as engine and gearbox were considered as possible spare parts, the chassis, because of its racing history and the fire damages suffered, was definitively scrapped. Therefore eventual pieces retrieved from the trash container should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off, if this is the case. We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion.

Yours faithfully, Ferrari Classiche, Umberto Masoni"

This letter confirms that 0846's chassis was written off and scrapped, not melted into oblivion. For many years this is ALL and Exactly what Glickenhaus posited happened: That his car contains 80+% of the chassis remains of P 3/4 0846 among other original parts. He's never disputed that as far a Ferrari is concerned 0846 was written off/scrapped and under Ferrari's authentication definitions his car could not be authenticated by them. Glickenhaus is not the one who retrieved the chassis remains of 0846 "from the trash container" and used them to "to rebuild or to revival a car which was written off..." but he was the one who discovered exactly where the chassis remains of 0846 wound up and to insure that Umberto's wish: "We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces..." remains possible."

ALSO THIS PASTED FROM WIKIPEDIA...

"it appears that nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the wrecked P3/4 0846 are part this car.[8] This discovery has stirred debate [9] Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. "

SO IF YOUR NUMBER IS 80% NEEDS TO BE LEFT FOR IT TO BE CONSIDERED GENUINE I'D SAY THAT THIS CAR IS, FOR A LACK OF BETTER WORDS... IN THE MONEY.

 

I'm going through it.

I don't see why Jim couldn't answer 2 simple questions without someone having to spend over a solid week, which is what it took you to go through it.

 

Getting the answer and accepting it are two completely different things.

 

Do remember that much of the above is written by Jim Glickenhaus in the 3rd person talking about himself including the paragraph with the 80% figure.

 

I want to say it's incredibly rude, to my mind, to engage in this thread without taking the time to read it all.

Those of us that have been here since it started, fifteen years ago, have the understanding of what you have 'gone on and on and on and on about' for the last three weeks to a month.

Your "inquiring mind' has added ZERO value to the thread, IMO and is the reason many have been rather short with you.

Believe.....don't believe, but bring something new (that vintage video link was nice) or you might consider, as some have gently noted, your own reputation in Ferrari circles..

 

I have a lot of respect for that. Thanks.

As I have found some things that I am unsure of also, I am going to take the time to dig through it once again from the beginning. And also the old threads that PSK posted.

Honestly I think the best we could do in a quest to get the real answer would be to put a one or two week moratorium on posting in this thread to give people time to re-read and sift through this mess for answers to any questions they have, that may have been skimmed over in the past.

Reading a bunch of pages again may be a pain, but I think we can all agree it is less painful then reading through what has been posted as of late.

Maybe by all refreshing our memories, we can eliminate the new and extra clutter.

 

Ferrari Market Letter is Gerald Roush (deceased).....

 

With respect to you, Bubba I don't need to have gone through the whole 12 years of repetitive postings to see the actual misinterpretations and misquotes by omission that have been the reason for my concern.

 

Sure. But everything you have posted has been heresay also.

There is this though..
"it appears that nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the wrecked P3/4 0846 are part this car.[8] This discovery has stirred debate [9] Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. "

I happen to believe though that Napolis is telling the truth.

 

My concern has been the misquotes by omission and misinterpretations which I have qualified by posting the actual quotes and highlighting the area of concern in those misquotes by omission.

 

The value of P3/4, whatever it is in the market, is but a rounding error in the total amount of 'other people's money' that Mr. G., and before him, his father, are responsible for.

He would be foolhardy in the extreme to put his personal reputation on the line with anything but the most forthright posts.

He is telling you in the most recent posts above he considered the possibility of Piper himself making a "P3/4 replica" to use his older engines, but then discarded it, as too far fetched.

Please, go ahead and wade thru the 15 years of "repetitive posts" and then consider, please, the personal points I make above.

I'm not some Napolis fanboy, I have met him and enjoyed some good turtle soup and a crawfish omelet....I feel he is very trustworthy, in any of his personal dealings.
He could make a mistake, obviously, beig human..but many of the "behind the scenes" vendors he uses in Italy have the expertise to know what they are looking at.

 

I'll bet you are fun at parties..

Are you married???

You were a writer for Monty Python??

 

I will take your advice.

Also, as hard as it may seem I will actually admit to being a Jim Glickenhaus fanboy. I love his cars, especially 0854, Dino Competizione, the car that is the subject of this thread and the fact that he shares them with us.

Oh, how could I forget the fantastic P4/5 cars.

 

Seeing that you keep misinterpreting things and are overly repetitive I would argue that you do.

Unfortunately we all have to dig through repetitive posts to find the actual information.

This latest barrage of unneccesary posts would prob not have to add to that burden if you did.

 

Whatever!!!

 

I think we all feel that Jim has answered these questions.

In all fairness to Jim, he took much more time then a week to get the answers.

Is this your words to me? Or Napolis's words to you?

 

*laughing, with Vincent*

Let's keep our heads, mates...

It's 4AM in the UK, and I have plenty of whiskey left, here in Texas.
And Gerald Roush's bar sign is here, on my wall!

 

Steven,

When you get to the part of Jim's paper, that specifically pertains to the engine mounts, the original geometry of the tubes that were configured to that point for stress, and the mounting of the P3 engine, pay CLOSE attention to what is done, to mount the P4 motor.

It's a 'cheater plate" of sorts, that moves the engine mating point several inches.

There is also some water piping that was "going to the old location" that was crudely cut, mitered and rerouted to the P4 block. That is, IMO exactly the type of work the Race Shop executed between events...hurried....crude......effective.

This, together with the Targa Florio frame damage repairs, led Jim to his first questioning moments, when working on what should have been a "P4 frame, from Enzo's blueprints"..

 

I'd be careful what you say. Words like that may force me to come visit you in Texas.

Honestly this is my confusion and the reason I feel it is important to read deeper into the whole thread as I am not quite clear of the different engines, different chassis swap-ability. After a recent post I realize there is more for me to learn and worth taking a second look.