The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The chassis is 80% there..empty. No engine or suspension. Let's say that's 30% of the car. How much from that point is original 0846 components as it raced in lemans..

 

A young lady just left, and she insisted on dusting and organizing all the bottles.

I just had to bear it, as it was good work, then moved the old favorites back near to hand.
The Irish into that far corner, will never work........

 

I have read the 0846 papers but I will revisit that part of them.

 

His engine and transmission bears the Lemans inspection stamps also, although they are dated, and cannot be traced back to which car they might have been assigned, to my knowledge...

I think he has multiple gearboxes at this point.

 

If you read further about the scrutineering stamps you will find your answer.

And as described before parts most likely flew between the cars in the heat of battle so it is safe to say an original part that the car left the factory with may not have stayed with any car as time went on. Any of the P-cars could have at one time or another had a part from another car in it.

But as far as your questions about major components such as engine etc., it is all there in what I posted.

And at the end of the day the majority of the restoration world is not concerned if say, a mustang door handle was originally with the car, they are concerned if it is the correct original part for that car.

Sometimes they may match certain date codes for parts that correspond to the build sheet but when it comes to parts without identification numbers or stamps an original part is an original part whether the car left the showroom with it or not.

And as has been said before, engines etc most likely went into whichever car needed them at the time. Not a lot of care for serial numbers when there's a race to be run.

 

I found it quite interesting, as the smaller tube bracing that joins at that node, to support the bushing for the P3 engine bolt, well it ends up "in the wrong place" against the P4 block

With the additional adaptor plate, a simple and elegant solution occurs, although it leaves those stresses "meandering about" somewhat at the end of the day....it held together pretty well though, all these years.

 

Thanks. Roush seems to think they do point to 0846 from what is printed in my above posting.

 

A great voice of knowledge was lost, with his passing.....Marcel has the info, now.

 

This is why I feel clarifying these points before too much time passes is important.

You can still talk to the guys who built the cars, documented the cars, etc.

If the questions aren't asked now, it will all be lost and the only thing left to believe will be internet heresay.

Correct information being passed to future generations is the provenance of enthusiasts as time goes on.

In other words, our history is the history we keep.

It's good to see the work of Roush being kept alive.

 

No, he may not have thought that at all. This is my whole point about misquotes by omission and misinterpretations. You have misinterpreted the information in that passage because by omission of who wrote exactly what in it you have jumped to the wrong conclusion about Roush's thoughts. Only what is in bold was said by Roush. Who do you think wrote the rest?

ALSO THIS PASTED FROM WIKIPEDIA...

"it appears that nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the wrecked P3/4 0846 are part this car.[8] This discovery has stirred debate [9] Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Its tube frame chassis appears to be a P3 modified to hold a P4 engine, as was the case with 0846 exclusively, and the damage from two contemporary racing accidents appears in the frame as well. The car's transmission, engine heads, and steering rack also include the correct Le Mans scrutineering marks, linking them to P3 0846 and P3/4 0846 of 1966 and 1967. "

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c

 

I understand your point here. The words of Roush are in the quotation marks: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car." Whereas I read them as also including what followed. Fair enough.

But in all fairness Roush considered the evidence presented to be worthy of being "Strong claims"

The truth here is reading letters isn't going to get you all the correct answers as everything we read can be swayed by how someone interpreted something before they wrote it, and how something can be interpreted when the reader reads it. Maybe Roush's reference to strong claims is even the strong claims of someone else other then himself. Though I doubt that. But... fair enough.

To really get to the answers you have to look at the facts.

And the facts in this case, as has been said before, are in the metal.

Naturally I want this car to be the real thing. I want it to survive, as I am about the cars making it as long as they can.

I thought that wasn't the top of your priorities or interest, and if I also misinterpreted that I apologize.

So if I look at this, from the point of a preservation enthusiast, I would say that you would hope that this frame is actually the discarded remains of 0846, rather then disavow that they are not.

But wanting to believe that something is what it is, when it is not, does not do that enthusiast any justice.

So you need to find out why you believe it is real and come up with your reasons.

Then you need to ask the hard questions of why you don't think it is.

I have to wonder what your top five for each of those are.

The good thing is the frame exists today. And in that frame are all the answers you need.

I see six possibilities of how this frame came to be as it sits today. Feel free to modify or add one.

1. It was the discarded remains 0f 0846 that were found and re-built into Napolis's P3/4.

2. It was the discarded remains of another P3/4.

3. Piper had this frame built to P3/4 spec, even though he had the plans for, and was building P4 spec frames.

4. Napolis received a P3 or P4 frame built by Piper or one that slipped through the cracks of Ferrari, and in an attempt to cash in and deceive the world, he quietly modified it to resemble a once discarded P3/4 frame serial number 0846, welds, crash damage and all but didn't want to waste his time on a number tag.

5. No one knows what they are talking about when they say it was modified, and this is actually a P3 or P4 spec frame that could have been an original Ferrari frame that slipped through the cracks, or it is a P/3 or P/4 spec frame that Piper had built.

6. No one knows what they are talking about and this is not a Ferrari whatsoever.

Based on your reasons for thinking it is and isn't which one of the above answers fits what you believe this frame is? Which do you think can be eliminated by the facts.

 

Steve,

Have you talked to Marcel?

Pretty conclusive proof that it was not completely destroyed and Piper had it. A lot of people trust Marcel.
Pete

 

Vincent,

1. It was the discarded remains 0f 0846 that were found and re-built into Napolis's P3/4. - Nah, way too logical and lacking conspiracy theories ...

2. It was the discarded remains of another P3/4. - Scratch this, there was ever only one P3/4

3. Piper had this frame built to P3/4 spec, even though he had the plans for, and was building P4 spec frames. - Jim's frame is very obviously a P3 modified to suit a P4 engine not the other way around.

4. Napolis received a P3 or P4 frame built by Piper or one that slipped through the cracks of Ferrari, and in an attempt to cash in and deceive the world, he quietly modified it to resemble a once discarded P3/4 frame serial number 0846, welds, crash damage and all but didn't want to waste his time on a number tag. - If you had said P3 frame only then it would be possible. I guess anything is possible if you started with a bunch of unwelded tubes. BTW: This is why a couple of hundred posts ago I warned Steve that he was working towards implying that Jim forged the chassis. I'm still surprised he cannot see that he is implying this ... the chassis is either #0846 or Piper made it or Jim made it ... take your pick

5. No one knows what they are talking about when they say it was modified, and this is actually a P3 or P4 spec frame that could have been an original Ferrari frame that slipped through the cracks, or it is a P/3 or P/4 spec frame that Piper had built. - Now if you had said Piper had a spare P3 chassis lying around and also had a spare P4 engine then it would make sense, ie. Piper made a P3/4 chassis to use this spare engine. BUT we have proof that Jim's very car was seen with a P3 engine so why would Piper go to all that hassle when he already had an engine to make it active? Oh and he already has a P4 (0900) with a CanAm engine in it (I believe) so that car would be faster still, so the answer is not that he wanted to go faster.

6. No one knows what they are talking about and this is not a Ferrari whatsoever. - the most obvious answer

Okay I'll shut up again ...
Pete

 

Ten years gone, but you'll remember this one.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/134376997-post297.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Roush made reference to "strong claims" which is not the same as "strong evidence, proof or grounds."

 

Pete, no I haven't talked to Marcel. I know his excellent reputation and that many people trust him.

 

Wax, I did read that but I must confess that what came to mind was that the rear right hand side of the chassis that Jim has has had the tubes replaced and we know that Ferrari's position is that 0846 is "officially scrapped" and had a sad conclusion so they wouldn't have issued a fresh chassis number plate to attach to the new tubing.

 

Pete

Ferrari clearly stated before publishing the fact in their sole discretion that I have been the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 that they first constructed in 1966, what department at Ferrari would have to investigate my submission before Ferrari would allow that to occur.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143003266-post7020.html

Months ago Steve clearly stated exactly what he felt that meant.

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

Many years ago I explained the legal process under which the car I own is legally forever, not challengeable by Ferrari or anyone else, 1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 0846. This legal process is ancient. It was part of Roman Law. It's part of The Bible and many other religious and secular laws. It's part of and recognised in many countries throughout the World today and has been clearly accepted by US and Italian Motor Vehicle and Customs Authorities specifically regarding 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 0846. This is forever and has been for over 12 years. "Speak Now Or Forever Remain Silent".

"The common law doctrine of estoppel by acquiescence is applied when one party gives legal notice to a second party of a fact or claim, and the second party fails to challenge or refute that claim within a reasonable time. The second party is said to have acquiesced to the claim, and is estopped from later challenging it, or making a counterclaim. The doctrine is similar to, and often applied with, estoppel by laches."

Once again nothing new.

Nathan's post containing David's statement and including David's Photo of when, as per Macca, he called 0846 his "P3" and it was fitted with a 24 Valve motor proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that David didn't have a clue as to how Ferrari converted 0846's P3 chassis to accept a P4 engine and why Ferrari shortened it's wheelbase by 12mm. It also proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that I did not counterfeit this unique chassis. Those posts ended that part of the debate years ago.

Once again should any of you want to see 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 0846 it will be on display next Wednesday during the day and during their evening event at Authorised Ferrari Dealer Miller Motor Cars in Greenwich. Hallowed ground. Use to be Mr. Chinetti's showroom.

 

Re-posting this in case you missed it. Although I'm glad that you responded to the above question that is convenient to your argument, I feel the real questions we need to start answering are the ones below, as I'm sure that you, as well as the rest of us want to get down to the bottom of this thing.

I am starting to once again wonder if you would you rather this car was the real deal? Or are you hoping it's a fake?

Another question.

Do you consider 0858 to be a P3, a 350 Can Am, a P4, or a P3/4 as it sits now?

 

I am not hoping the car is a "fake" at all. I have no axe to grind whatsoever as has been said. What I would like to know is what it really is and be able to consider the actual facts, not misinterpretations of the facts due to the misquotes by omission that we have been subjected to, as I demonstrated earlier using your misinterpretation as an example and in my previous posts, as well as a straight answer to a simple question: Where have Ferrari in writing confirmed that Jim Glickenhaus has resurrected 0846 on its original chassis? If Ferrari have not confirmed it in writing then I'm sure that Jim could be big enough to say that he was mistaken, if that is the case. We all make mistakes. If they have confirmed it in writing I would gladly be the first to congratulate him. I know that Jim's motives are not for financial gain but feel they are those of perception and that people perceive the car as he does.

 

my word Vincent, but of your 442 posts on this site, I would suspect you have most of your activity here. you seem to be on a mission to support one and discredit another. is there a drive or ride in it for you?

 

Yes.

There is most definitely a drive or ride in it for me. Or in my words a motivation.

In other peoples words, I have a dog in this fight. Not in relation to this car but to what my idea is of the overall institution of car preservation in general.

I believe the car to be the real deal and think it is an injustice to spread rumors without any proof whatsoever that it isn't. Mostly when all of the evidence logically points to it being 0846.

For a car to make it through what this car did and then burn it to the ground goes against what, I feel, a Ferrari enthusiast is. I would have to hope that our interest is in unearthing what has been lost versus losing what has been found.

And in all fairness, in other threads, people aren't beating a horse to death and asking the same question over and over again to find the smallest thread of a chance that the car is not real when all of the answers have already been provided and logically point to something that once considered lost is actually quite the opposite, as it has been found.

I respect Shaughnessy and his finds and all, but come on, a Ferrari P3/4 has been found here. In the history of car collecting this has to be the mother of all barn, or shop finds if you will.

In my eyes this is not just about 0846.

This is about preservation of any collectable car, whether it is a Ferrari or not.

The reason most of my posts are here and not in other places as much is due to I don't feel the need to argue an, in my opinion, irrelevant argument, In the other areas I am just able to read and gain more knowledge. Next time I will post "cool wheels" when someone throws a fresh set of Gottis on his 308 just to keep my post counts even.

My favorite areas would be the Vintage section, 206-246, boxer, 308 (both GT4 and GTB/S), Mondial, F40-288 GTO.

I'm not much for the newer cars but pop around here and there from time to time.

If you'll notice, I was a member for many years before my first post as I felt no reason to.

But I guess I'm a save the whales kind of a guy. When I see people dismantling and distorting history for their selfish desire I think it is wrong and am willing to put in the time to defend it.

I am not looking to dis-credit the possibility of the other. But if you believe it to be a fake at least provide some proof that makes it a possibility.

If you ask me the greatest thread on this board that I enjoy reading the most is this one below.

By the way, this car is Chassis 6727. No one disputes that it is not what it says it is. Cause no on cares about this car as it is not worth the money to warrant attention. To me this guy is the creme de la creme of what a Ferrari enthusiast is. When it was about the passion for the car more then the investment. Not worth saving? I guess it matters what the car is worth to you. And also if you deal in dollars or passion.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/387338-330gt-2-2-series-i-parts-wanted.html

 

So if Ferrari were to state in writing that this car is without a doubt 0846 would that be what you need to settle your quandry of what 0846 is?

Also, the frame obviously exists today as a P3/4 frame. From the information you have gathered in your extensive search for the truth what is your best guess as to how that happened?

 

Yes, if Ferrari Classiche or someone in authority at Ferrari have stated it in writing it would help a great deal.