The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It's not an assumption at all. It's fact.

 

This thread is a bit like all the theories regarding the missing Malaysian plane, or the assassination of JFK

All make sense and all have merit, but no smoking gun/black box has been found to prove beyond any reasonable doubt the actual truth.

I think thats the same with 0846.

I guess the key witness would be the company who sold the frame/parts to David Piper, only they know if they recycled an old damaged chassis and sold it to Piper as a new item.

Even Ferrari or Piper himself don't probably really know the truth, or at least they are not letting on, and it seems they never will.

No other car is claiming to be 0846 and at the end of the day its not like you could pick up all the parts on ebay and build another yourself and claim its then 0846 so what harm is done if Jims car takes that title. Its not like the story of its rebirth is hidden away, a few mins on google links you to this thread.

As an aside regarding vehicle registration etc. If I one day found a truck load of p3/4 parts, built it up into a car and popped down to my local vehicle licencing office I could easily register it as a P3/4 and assign it a chassis number of 0846 and drive it home, all completely legal.

If I took it to Italy, they would look up that info on their database and let me on my way, no other car in Italy is claiming to be 0846 p3/4 thats all they would be worried about.

If Jims and my theoretical car were to meet one day, then it would be like the hill scene in Spartacus, or more like the one in the Life of Brian!

No I'm Brian and so is my wife

 

In the interest of full disclosure were Ferrari S.p.A at Maranello, Italy physically and provably served with legal papers of your claim to the chassis number 0846 for 1967 Ferrari 330 P3/4?

 

Want to know another fact?

Miura demands answers but yet he wont give them. That's not an assumption at all. It's fact.

-Still wondering what you feel 0858 genuinely is in it's current configuration? P4, P3, 350 Can Am? 512M? 84 Toyota Supra?

-Also still wondering where you think Jim's frame came from. It exists today so you have to have some theory of what it is and where it came from?

-Also wondering what your top 5 thoughts are that it could be the real deal and top 5 reasons you think it's not?

Oh yeah, and I'm still wondering this little one based on your "fact" that is not an assumption but, lets face it, is still only heresay as you probably have never attempted to register a car on the site...

 

I suspect that 0858 has quite a bit to do with it.

 

Wayne

Marcel has clearly reported that 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 owned by James Glickenhaus attended Quail.

Not sure how that's staying clear of all of this.

David gave Nathan a photo which he posted that proves beyond the shadow of ANY doubt that I did not counterfeit 0846's chassis and as David's statement clearly proves he didn't understand exactly how Ferrari fit a P 4 engine into a P3 chassis I think it's very unlikely that David counterfeited it as well.

You are correct in that a "Death Bed" statement is coming from Tom Meade concerning 0846's chassis.

As for the rest as Steve clearly posted last September what's left to argue?

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

Steve

 

Personally, I think the hacks at Piper's cut off the 0846 chassis plate.

I have my scenario - if you have the same thought - what is your scenario?

 

One thing about the 12MM. It's actually very important. Firstly Ferrari changed the chassis to do it rather than simply using adjustments to do it as they very clearly noted in factory documents and there's a reason they did. Without changing the chassis by 12MM AND LOWERING THE CHASSIS MOUNTING POINTS FOR THE GEARBOX they could not have fit a P4 engine at height they wanted to to lower the rear CG. More importantly they could not have fit a P4 engine and kept the rear wheel in the sweet spot of the wheel well to lower wheel induced lift without misaligning and stressing the half shafts. Ferrari changed the metal and clearly noted that they did in 0846's "SCHEDA TECHNICA". If it's meaningless why change the metal and carefully note that they did?

 

Personally I think Ferrari cut off the chassis plate when they scrapped 0846. I believe the reason that Ferrari asked me to tell the press that they didn't sell the original chassis to me which they didn't but that they scrapped it has to do with Italian tax regulations that selling the chassis would have violated without paying tax. Tom's "Deathbed Confession" may shine some light on this.

 

One should also note that the unique and Original Magnesium Uprights were still with the car. That is hardly a coincidence & one of many sets of aspects that go far beyond possible/probable & plausible.

Regarding Scheda Technica, P3 0844 chassis should be remembered in discussion, as it provides a "control" reference point for the engineering marvel of triangulation, which converted engine mounts to P4, hence singular P3/4, extant.

 

There were 5 original P3 chassis. 0844/0846/0848/0850/0854.

They all have P3 triangulated engine mounts that exactly match the engine mounts of P3/412P motors. 0844/0846/0848 were originally P3's YEAR OF CONSTRUCTION 1966.
As Ferrari correctly wrote in a note to me, mine is a unique car as it's chassis also has P4 engine mounts, shortened wheelbase and lowered gearbox mounts.

0850 and 0854's year of construction (Car) was 1967 (P3 Chassis 1966) and were always 412P's. Even though some refer to them as P 3/4's they're not. There is only one "unique" as Ferrari wrote to me, P3/4 and that is chassis 0846.

We're plowing the same ground and I'm moving on to Pete's thread.

Good Bye, Good LucK, Gd Bless

 

Full quote from Wiki: Ferrari Market Letter recently reported: "While Ferrari insists that 0846 was scrapped and is no more, a car exists with strong claims to be the resurrection of that car."

Can somebody update me as to (1) when the FML made this statement and (2) whether the statement was made by Gerald or his son?

My reason for asking is Gerald told me personally on several occasions that he did not believe this car was #0846. In fact, knowing Gerald, I'm sure that I was not the only person with whom he shared this opinion. (Wayne, do you care to share some of the past discussions on that site of which we cannot speak, but has something to do with Italian for chassis?)

So if Gerald changed his mind or softened his opinion, I'm curious as to why he did.

Dale

 

Ah hell, Wayne. Your silence speaks volumes. But surely you understand my concerns. Gerald Roush was first and foremost a historian. He had little patience for emotions, rumors, and hearsay. All he cared for was the truth.

So when I hear others saying that he changed his mind, I have to wonder. Frankly, on a personal note, I count it as one of my regrets in life that Gerald and I did not part on the best of terms. But you can't change the past no matter how much you might want to. However, I figure the least I can do is to speak up for him when he can't, even though I am a weak substitute. Again, if Gerald changed his mind, mea culpa and all that. I just want to make sure that the record is straight.

Carbon, dude. Cat got your tongue?

And Nathan, what about you?

Dale

 

A question, and just that, no proof etc etc so a theory like many others, but that is what this thread is all about, suggesting theories and providing evidence to discount or support them.

When all the P3 chassis frames were produced, could an extra bare spare one have also been made and stored? and could that have then been later modified as per 0846 original chassis and sold to David Piper rather than a new full blown p4 version.

i.e rather than 0846 damaged original chassis being repaired and sold as a new one to David Piper, a spare P3 chassis with the same mods to make it a P4 was sold to him? if that was the case I doubt he would have been bothered, he just wanted a couple of new frames at the end of the day, his continuation 900 series were to be racing cars not show cars

I guess Jims response will be related to the perceived repairs on his frame which could relate to incidents the original 0846 chassis encountered.

Did ferrari with other limited build race cars it produced, also have spare frames made just in case? if so have these ever later been built up?

If not then its provides good weight to the theory that the frame in Jims car is directly descended from the original of 0846

 

Ferrari has clearly stated that they manufactured 5 P3 frames in 1966 and because of strikes
were only able to build 3 of them into cars in 1966. 0844/0846/0848. They have also clearly stated that only one of them was modified as they wrote in the factory's "SCHEDA TECNICA" to accept a P4 engine the "unique" 0846 in December 1966.

In 1967 they used the two remaining P3 chassis to build 412P's 0850 and 0854.

0856/0858/0860 were built in 1967 on different P4 chassis. In 1968 Ferrari modified 0858 and 0860's P4 chassis to 350 Can Am chassis.

 

Your statement is not simple fact. It's your opinion of why Marcel reported/wrote what he reported/wrote which is simple and speaks for itself.

Marcel reported/wrote that 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 owned by me attended Quail. That is simple fact. While you are correct that legally my car is forever 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 that is not what Marcel reported/wrote.

The same is true of what Ferrari Published/Wrote in their sole discretion on their copyrighted website in 2002. There was absolutely no legal disclaimer on Ferrari S.p.A.'s website whatsoever of any kind nor was there any box to click anywhere to reach any when Ferrari S.p.A. first published that I owned 1967 Ferrari P4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 which Ferrari S.p.A. had first manufactured in 1966. The only requirements Ferrari made in writing before they published those simple facts and allowed photographs of my specific car to be included on the pages that Ferrari published were simple:

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

It was so simple that even Steve was able to understood as he posted months ago.

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

Adding Legal blah blah many years later to a Ferrari S.p.A website does not magically reach back and have any effect whatsoever on the fact that Ferrari S.p.A. Wrote/Published EXACTLY what they did years before, for many years, without any legal disclaimer whatsoever. Ferrari clearly Published/Wrote that the car I owned at that time was 1967 Ferrari P4 Chassis 0846 and that Ferrari had constructed it in 1966 and therefore had a P3 chassis that they later modified to accept a P4 engine. Ferrari did not Write/Publish that David Piper had constructed the car I owned in 1974 on a P4 Continuation chassis that David called 003.

 

That George I agree with.

Ferrari S.p.A. very clearly wrote/published without any legal disclaimer whatsoever in 2002 "Unique" , "date of manufacture 1966" and "Chassis 0846" and that I owned this car since I bought it from David in July 2000. That is fact.


Best

 

No, it runs on standard New York vehicle license plates, maybe a personalzed lettering.

 

The (three) frames did NOT come from Ferrari!

Man, we need to link some sort of aptitude quiz to being about to post in here!

Piper, armed with the blueprints CONTRACTED the frames to be built.