The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

True. Regular NY Plates with personalized lettering. NY DMV yearly inspection has been done annually for over 10 years at the same NY Authorized Ferrari Dealer Wide World of cars. Insured and legal to drive on the road Worldwide.

Clear title.
No outstanding warrants.

 

"I pay my union dues, and stay out of the passing lane..."
Ray Wylie Hubbard

 

I think Jim has a valid point here. There are two possibilities. One is what Jim has stated. One would think if this is correct there might have been evidence on a chassis tube of where the sn had been.The other possibility is that the tube with the sn on it had been destroyed at some point and was not part of what went to David Piper. and then later to Jim. What ever the case it perfectly well explains why DP didn't know the sn of this section of chassis he got from S.F. and correctly made no effort to guess at one. Issues of Italian tax regulations had been bypassed at S.F many times previously. Why not one more time. tongascrew

 

I for one hope you will write this.Save me a copy. tongascrew

 

Exactly. From the original chassis maker as well. They knew about the remains of 0846 and used them as a short cut to finish the job. Conjecture? Sure, but based on pretty solid evidence I think. Remember Ferrari didn't build the chassis. They had it built to their design and then built a car on it.

When someone who was involved in the repair of chassis 0846 after it crashed can stand and look at Jim's car and point out the repair sections what more do you need? EF is not going step out of the grave to bless the car.

Is it all original? No. Neither are most old racing cars that have been heavily crashed. They have all had major sections metal replaced including entire bodies. Almost none of these cars are "original".

The current 0846 is a rebuild off the remains of original chassis 0846 and and while not the ORIGINAL P3/4 it has as much of it as possible due to an incredible effort and expense by Jim. It's as good as it gets.

Round and round we go….

 

The "SCHEDA TECNICA" Technical Data Sheets, the information from which is published in Christian Huet's Cavalleria Ferrari P3/412 P book, that you refer to in your 0846 document actually state the 1966 P3 0846 chassis had a wheelbase of 2.40 m and not 2412 mm as you state. The same publication regarding the SCHEDA TECNICA sheets regarding 330 P3/4 (1967) also makes no mention of a change in the wheel base and continues to list it as 2.40 m.

If this is the case, it would prove that your chassis is not the original 0846 as raced at Daytona and Le Mans 1967 as you state that its wheel base has been shortened to 2400mm from 2412 mm.

The "SCHEDA TECNICA" sheets state that the wheelbase of P3 0844 and 0848 were modified from 2.40 m to 2412 mm when they were transformed from P3 to 412P.

The "SCHEDA TECNICA" sheets for 412P 0850 and 0854 state the same characteristics as 1966 P3 but a different wheel base of 2.412 m

 

Yep & I still strongly suggest there should be time-lapse and still photos with various f-numbers of our mutual Red, Yellow & Blue acquaintances parked *and* in motion in a particular Carnival atmosphere. Variety of shots may surprise with which won't make the grade & which will unexpectedly astound . . .
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The elephant in the room here is that Ferrari, according to their internal records "scrapped" 0846 shortly after Le Mans. .

That meant that, according to their records the car no longer existed. This is also reflected in the note that Jim has on numerous occasions posted:

To me this means that according to their internal records the car no longer exists, and since it does no longer exist according to their records there is no longer a Ferrari with the chassis number 0846.

Now, before you go to your keyboards to call me a heretic, realize that I'm in full support and absolutely believe that what Jim has is the reconstruction of 0846. That the car has been reconstructed from available spares (and face it most parts on old race cars aren't the original parts anyway) and that this car contains the "sprit" of 0846. While the history is clouded and lost for a time while it kicked around Italy and was in David Pipers hands, what is there is fully documented and Jim has been absolutely forthright in presenting what it is and what it isn't.

My only sticking point is that the car did not have a chassis number plate on it when the got it, but he has affixed a number plate to the frame, and that wasn't put there by Ferrari. While I believe that it is representative of the one that should have been there all along, one simply cannot create a number plate or stamp a chassis unless he is the creator or that car. For that reason, the only entity that can create that plate is Ferrari, since this car is being considered Ferrari 0846.

If Ferrari were to inspect the car and sanction the number plate, update the factory records (as they should since the car is here and it does exist), and agree that this car is in fact 0846, that would be "end of discussion". I'm sure that this is what Jim was trying to do in his correspondence with Ferrari 10 years ago and he supplied copious information to document what he found in researching and proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that this chassis is the remains of 0846.

The problem is that the letter above from Ferrari is probably less than he had hoped for from them. Their final comment on the subject is that " but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion" is pretty telling in that to me at least it means that they are speaking of the car in the past tense. The only way to bring the car back in their internal records is to "resurrect" it.

Perhaps the only way to do that is to take it Classiche and drop a few million dollars on the to get them to "bless" the car and go on from there. Were it mine I'd do the same as Jim, establish legal ownership, and just enjoy it for what it is, but unfortunately there is now and has always been a lot of criticism of the car from some who feel that unless "blessed" by the factory it isn't a Ferrari. For those folks, I suggest that you "get over it" and enjoy it for what it is.

Ferrari has been and are pretty much silent on the matter, because by being silent they let Jim establish the car legally, he can enjoy it, and they don't have to commit to anything. In today's litigious world, they would rather not have any of these old cars around that can legally be tied to them. If some lawsuit comes up later, they can simply say that according to their records the car was scrapped.

It's not a perfect world. There will always be some grey areas. 0846 is in a bit of limbo, but let's not get all whipped up about it. Jim has reconstructed a great piece of history, and he is generous enough to share and show it and let us all enjoy it and for me that is good enough. Would I rather have the car acknowledged by Ferrari, sure, that would shut up all of the naysayers here, but in the grand scheme of things it's not going to make any real difference, the car is going to be the same either way, and Jim will enjoy every minute that he spends with it, and that's all that counts anyway.

 

True and the answer is not in books replete with errors or even in the factory records as they are often wrong as are ACO Scrutinizing documents. The truth is in the metal and understanding why the metal was changed and how it was damaged and repaired. Look at and measure the chassis of 0844, examine and measure it's P3 engine mounts, measure it's wheelbase and track and look to find any modification of any dimensions. Do the same for 0854 and 0850. Then measure 0858 and 0856. Look at and measure their P4 motor mounts. Note the absence of any P3 motor mounts. Note the rear most attaching point in all of these chassis for the gearboxes that determines wheelbase. Was it ever lengthened? Was it ever shortened? Compare all of this with David's other "P4 Continuation chassis". Do any of them have both P3 and P4 engine mounts?

The answer is and has always been in the metal. 0846's unique P3/4 chassis speaks for itself. Despite Books and experts who refer to other P 3/4's THERE ARE NO OTHERS. There are 412P's. There is a 330 Can Am. (P3 Chassis and engine mounts) There is one P4. There are 350 Can Am's but there are, nor WERE THERE EVER, ANY OTHER P 3/4 Chassis.

I'm with Wayne. Unless someone posts something new worth responding to I won't be. As you know I have several Trolls on ignore so if any of you feel that anything they post needs responding to wake me up. Otherwise I'll see you around the campus.

 

Totally True.

 

Is it the real deal?

Until there is a solid argument that it is not, which hundreds of pages of this thread have yet to produce, rational and logic would say that it most definitely is.

Sure, you can raise your conspiracy theories and what ifs, but the frame had to come from somewhere, and I feel that Napolis has put together substantial and logical proof of how that happened.

In the end the victim is the history of the car and the losers are the fans, for we are the ones that don't get to see this car in the events that it should be allowed to participate in.

Sad that this car is not celebrated as it should be.

And I agree with El Wayne. If we aren't looking at the chassis for the answers we are looking at nothing.

 

Some guys are trying...! The place is here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/441804-place-enjoy-jims-p3-4-a.html

And only ONE page for now...!

 

May I refer Jim to page 79 of his 0846 pdf document in which he states: "....the left side original chassis tubes which still bear the marks of the 1967 Targa Florio crash and repair...."

Wasn't the damage to the car on the right and was there any damage to the chassis at all? Doesn't look like it in the picture which is of 0846 at the TF '67?
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My point exactly, I wasn't referring to the product liability issue, it's simply that if later it was found that the car wasn't what they said it was they would be potentially liable and there is no reason to take on that risk.

 

So to recap:-

The frame in Jims car is generally agreed to be P3 spec that has been converted to accept a P4 engine. No one disputes that?

All P3 frames are accounted for, except for that of 0846. No spare frames to p3 spec have ever been listed/identified as existing, again no one disputes that?

Repairs/modifications to parts of Jims frame are consistent with previous damage to the frame of 0846. Open to some debate?

David Piper thought he had bought a new P4 frame for one of his 900 series cars, which he later sold to Jim as a complete car, but evidence shows it to be to earlier p3 spec in many places. Again no one disputes this?

Bit of a no brainer really I guess when you look at it that way, if its not based on the original frame of 0846 then how does it exist otherwise? and for what reason?

So that's the frame sorted, and the rest of the components are original spec and could have been mixed and matched between all the other related P cars in period, so at least some of them would have been used in 0846 at some point.

Ferrari never sold 0846, but did give away its original damaged chassis for scrap, so cannot stake any claim to own it from that point on, or really have any input into its future from then on either, other than to say the original 0846 no longer exists in their records.

Jim rebuilt his car once he owned it to full p4 spec using original components and some period bodywork.

No other party lays any claim to owning any other P3/4 built from components linked to 0846 or any other P3 or P4?

Its legally recognised as a p3/4 with an assigned chassis number of 0846, but that does not prove a link back to the car that Ferrari originally built, just proof that the current car is owned by Jim, with no claims being made by any other party to any ownership of it, or its components. No dispute?

Simple case of "the king is dead, long live the king" ? is it not? the DNA chain is there

 

Post 7195: "To me this means that according to their internal records the car no longer exists, and since it does no longer exist according to their records there is no longer a Ferrari with the chassis number 0846."

Exactly! Ferrari is #0846's creator and the holder of all rights. If they eliminated the car in their records, this is a fact and the only relevant point. It makes clear that #0846 doesn't exist any more. It has been gone long time ago. May be some remains were used in DP's recreation and took - as a new car - a new identity. Fantastic car but definitely not Ferrari's #0846.

 

P 3/4 Specs.

Cheers

 

I've searched the site including this thread for previous coverage of the SCHEDA TECNICA and I can't find the information to answer my question. I'm not asking this to catch anyone out but just to find the truth.

According the SCHEDA TECNICA the wheel bases are as follows:

P3 0844, 0846, 0848 = 2400 mm.
P3/412P 0844, 0848 = 2412 mm.
P3/4 0846 = 2400 mm.
412P 0850, 0854 = 2412 mm.
P4 0856, 0858, 0860 = 2400 mm.

All Ferrari's publications including the 1966 press release state the wheelbase for the P3 as 2400 mm.

Reading Jim's 0846 pdf he uses the SCHEDA TECNICA as his source of information and makes reference to it on pages 63, 64 and 70. Please could someone ask him why he quotes the info from the SCHEDA TECNICA but doesn't use the information contained in it for the P3 wheelbase length, which states that the wheelbase length of 0846 when it was a P3 and when it was transformed to P3/4 as 2400 mm, yet Jim states that 0846, when a P3, and the other 2 P3s were 2412 mm. Please could Jim explain the difference. Thanks very much.

 

Please could someone ask Jim to clarify what Build Sheets he is referring to in the above post? Thank you.

 

Much like this thread.

 

Mind you, it's from Wikipedia & without other cite, but;
Ferrari P - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There have also been replica chassis built:

0900 was a continuation commissioned and currently owned by David Piper
0900a is another currently unfinished continuation also owned by Piper
0900b is a third continuation, but is still under construction. Its frame was made in the 2000s by Piper for an American customer.

Then there's just one more thing about a certain number . . .
Ferrari Shell Historic Challenge - Silverstone - 365 P s/n 0824

[I don't rehash barchetta info here]

 

As has been said before the welds of 0846 are clearly from different welders, distinguishing different areas of repair and different modifications. Different welders have a unique fingerprint if you will.

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before so...

Is it possible to examine the welds of the surviving P3 chassis members, of these three cars to see if there are welds where the fingerprint matches the remaining, thought to survive as original, welds of 0846?

I'm not aware of the size of the Vaccari and Bosi's shop when the chassis were originally welded, prior to repairs done later, or how the work was dolled out to different welders, but I would think they had one guy welding all three original chassis?

If so, maybe a important piece of evidence in showing that 0846 was the P3 that was fabricated in Vaccari and Bosi's shop originally, would be the ability to match these welds with one of the other two cars? Also with the welds of the remaining Piper chassis that were ordered years later.

I think the evidence of the crash should be enough to make a solid connection to it's timeline with the past, but for those that need more proof of origin, maybe there's this.

Just a thought.