The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

As an observer looking in, I sort of think everything that could realistically be done has been done

The only people that can add to the debate are Ferrari if they have any new period information, the original frame constructor/modifier, and David Piper.

None of the 3 have anything to gain by getting involved so I doubt they ever will.

Jim appears more than happy as an owner, the car needs no more, the staunch doubters minds will never be turned.

With regards Steve/Muira, I don't believe he is a doubter as such, it seems he just does not agree with some of the evidence Jim has put forward, so is seeking clarification in a format he himself would be happy with, if that was made available I am sure he would come out in support of the link back to the original 0846. Thats his personal choice though as another observer only. None of us have any real right to be provided with such.

The first I knew of Jim/0846 was when I started reading the 0858 debate, I found it hard to rationalise his views on the matter when he was quite the maverick with regards his own cars/creations and Ferrari. Given the size of this thread I only really tagged onto the info at the end of it, as no doubt many others do, and I was sceptical as a result of the claims to a link back to the original 0846. I basically thought Jim was trying to clone 0846 using a very nice David Piper continuation car as a base.

The more I read, the more old support info that re emerged, the more my view was turned.

I will put my hand up and say my initial view was wrong in relation to Jims 0846.

For whats its worth, which is not a lot! I myself now believe Jims 0846 is a direct descendent of Ferrari's 0846 and worthy of the title.

 

Jim just has to look at his #0854 which is a 412P made by the same chassis makers and similar time.
Pete

 

I agree.

I don't feel examining welds is something that needs to be done. It's more of a what else could you do to clearly see, that this is what it is claimed to be.

I'd love to hear a good story on how it is not.

 

I have no more to add to the debate, so plan to stay on the sidelines from now on.

Just my opinion but I think Vincent and Steve should do similar and let other voices be heard now, we have tended to hog the thread recently.

 

Yes and as I also own a totally original P3 chassis that was manufactured AT THE SAME TIME AS P3 0846's CHASSIS "Year of Construction 1966" that Ferrari used to build 412P 0854 in 1967 as I posted many years ago many have compared welds on 0854 and 0846 as I invited them too. Once again read the thread, and inspect the metal. The story is in the metal. I have also inspected the chassis of 0844,0850, 0856, 0858 and David's "Continuation P4" chassis. The metal tell their story as well. I've also put micrometers and rulers to MANY chassis. Rulers and micrometers are tools that can be used to independently verify.

Books are books but the metal and measurement and inspection thereof are real and verifiable.

 

and I don't have to travel far to do it.

Cheers!

 

Cheers

 

Any plans for the P3 chassis?

 

The P3 chassis Jim is referring to is the one Ferrari used to make the 412 P that he owns which is 0854. It's been said that 5 x P3 chassis were made in 1966 from which 3 x P3s were built up in 1966, 0844, 0846 and 0848 and 2 x 412 Ps were built in 1967, 0850 and 0854.

 

Please could Jim let the forum know the source of the "SCHEDA TECNICA" he refers to in his 0846 doucument on pages 63, 64 and 70 and that he has also made reference to in this thread. Are they the official build sheets? I think it only fair that as you are offering the "SCHEDA TECNICA" as evidence in your case for the reasons why you believe your 0846 chassis is the original one as raced by Ferrari at Daytona and Le Mans in 1967 that people considering this evidence should know the source of the information. Thank you.

 

Thank you for confirming that 0854 was welded at the same time.

I remember the talk of the welds but more as referenced to the areas of repair/modification, then comparison for similar welds between various cars.

Obviously all that truly matters is the proof in the frame. There may be a missing chunk of time but the evidence that is in the frame as it sits today clearly connects to its past.

 

You got it.

I look forward to sitting around till someone comes up with a decent story of how this frame is not what it claims to be.

Gladly.

 

In those days drawings were done on velum in pencil and then were printed in blueline (blueprints) copies that were used in the shop.

Most of the time when you made a modification to a set of prints, like the changes from the P3 to the P4, you used an eraser and modified the existing velum drawing, but kept a set of old prints in blueline for reference, because after you changed the original velum there was no going back.

For that reason, if there are P3 prints they are most likely old blueline drawings and the originals are gone.

 

Those who've actually worked on these cars understand that. They get up every morning at 4, make a double espresso and sit down to work on their build sheets. They open their worn leather journals and laboriously write down everything they built and unbuilt the day before. Every dimension of every shim that enabled to align every bearing and enable things to work. After a race they wrote down everything. Every setting, ratio, PSI, fluid level, etc., etc., etc.
These logs, diaries, build sheets, schedules, shim list, set up specifications, technical race record etc., etc., are very valuable. They are passed down to those who are worthy of seeing and safeguarding them. Sometimes they are packed away in boxes of spares, some times they are lost. Those who wind up with original ones are very lucky and see things that most never will. The things that were done. The mistakes that were made. The numbers that were re stamped. The identities that were swapped. It's all there and if you look closely you're right you can see what was erased and what was re penciled. In the end it's metal and logic. Five identical P3 chassis made in 66. Three used in 66. Two used in 67. One modified into something truly unique. That's the story.

 

So do the factory build sheets exist for 0846 as a P3 and/or in its transformation to P3/4?

 

Weird view IMO. Surely surviving objects trump mere paperwork, especially as Ferrari (and other Italian companies) were notoriously poor at it.

Think of all those GM and other manufacturers prototypes that were sent to the dump and some survived, etc.
Pete

 

Weird? This is a fact confirmed in writing by Ferrari upon special request and subsequently a Ferrari #0846 does not exist any more according to its creator and holder of all rights.

 

In light of your post it's very strange that it's sitting in the showroom of an authorized Ferrari Dealer at this very moment and they've invited hundreds of people over for an event tonight to see it.

 

'Spose it doesn't help that Jim is in fact driving it around.

Perry

 

What exactly is sitting in the show room or driving around? According to Ferrari not #0846, because a car with this identity does not exist any more.

 

I've been thinking about this. It's been said that Wayne Sparling wasn't even at the Targa Florio in 1967 but let's just assume for a minute that he was:

If there was the damage as stated in the post in the screen shot along with all the other damage that is said in this thread that it had such as the damaged front suspension and the rear wheel actually flapping about the car would have needed much more doing to it than could have been done at the roadside or by anyone on the island of Sicily at the race. The car would have needed to have gone on a jig before any welding at all would have been done surely? It's not as if the car was going to be quickly repaired for it to continue in the race. It had retired. Wayne Sparling was not a Ferrari mechanic, but a NART mechanic. Why would Ferrari have used him? They had their own men at the race. No, if this car had the damage it's said to have had Ferrari would have only had it repaired by their own, and back at the factory, imo.
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No they said as far as they are concerned it was destroyed and removed from THEIR books. That does not mean that it does not exist anymore, or to be more specific the pieces of metal that were the #0846 chassis have not survived.
Pete

 

When and who at Ferrari said as far as they are concerned 0846 was destroyed and removed from their books? If this is the case, it sounds exactly like 0846 does not exist any more.

 

Now we've begun conversing in Newspeak?
A tangible object ceases to exist because a piece of paper says so?

We abandoned common sense a while ago. Now we've said goodbye to logic too.

 

Tried to sit on the sidelines but I couldn't resist....

Hopefully we'll be able to get back to El Wayne's 3 questions as soon as possible.