The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Please could Jim let the forum members know which P3/P4 Technical Data sheets he refers to in the above post #3931 show that the wheelbase of a P3 = 2412mm? This is very important in corroborating some of Jim's evidence in how he has identified his chassis as that of 0846.

 

I am reminded of the man who began to stir after the doctor pronounced him dead. "I'm still alive," he protested to the orderly. The orderly scoffed and said, "so you think you know better than the doctor."

Sorry, just trying to introduce some levity to this interesting discussion.

Andy

 

^See above.

 

Ok. Now this is very interesting. Please could Jim let the forum know if the SCHEDA TECHNICA TALAIO that he refers to above is a Ferrari document. If so this would be strong evidence that the P3 chassis were in fact 2412 mm and not 2400 mm as everything else I've seen published so far states. Please could he share them with us.

 

If we were talking about a new car Horsefly I would agree with you, but we are talking about a 50 year old car that has been raced and modified and raced again, restored by people other than Ferrari. There is no way Ferrari would be liable if they officially stated they now believe Jim's car is #0846 and he had an accident. No way.

Just like Alfa Romeo would not be liable if my 1971 Alfa 1750GTV fell to pieces on the highway. The person who issued it a road worthy certificate might be, otherwise it would be me as I restored it.
Pete

 

You don't get it, quite simply because you don't get it.

>8^)
ER

 

I am trying to, really I am.

Please would you be kind enough to ask Jim to let the forum members and the readers of his 0846 papers know the source of the "SCHEDA TECNICA," Technical Details and an actual copy of the information contained therein that document the details of the length of the wheelbase of P3 0846 and P3/4 0846. These details are the foundations and the corroborative evidence acting as witness to Jim's claims in this thread and in his 0846 pdf published papers that the P3 had a wheelbase of 2412mm which was shortened in the unique case of 0846 to 2400 mm when it was transformed to P3/4 specification. The details I have asked for have been omitted from the evidence thus far. Thank you.

 

There are cars that Ferrari has Classiched whose Chassis after being involved in a major fire were were split in two and built up into two different cars. One of them recently received The best Classiched Ferrari award at Cavallino. There are cars that Ferrari has Classiched that were involved in fatal accidents that were split apart and those parts were built up into two different cars.

You are quite correct about "road worthy" certificates which in NY are Inspection Stickers and must be carried out every year. In the case of 1967 Ferrari 330 P 3/4 Chassis 0846 Authorised Ferrari Dealer Wide World of Cars has inspected and certified it's roadworthiness continuously every year for many, many years.

Speaking of many, many years Arlie hasn't posted for many, many years. My thoughts are with him. Truly terrible what happened. (He posted what happened)

 

The first car you refer to above had the divided parts reunited. Why didn't you include that in your post?

 

It doesn't help pointing to it, the computer says we don't have it.

I say the proof is in the metal also. Just because this was junk picked, albeit a pretty high value pick, doesn't mean existentially it doesn't exist, just not on Ferraris books. They didn't cut it up and melt it. If they did, then it doesn't exist as it's original entity. I'd sure like to drive this imaginary beast. Kinda like a unicorn?

Perry

 

According to Jim the "proof in the metal" in the wheelbase of this chassis has been shortened from 2412 mm to 2400 mm. What does the "SCHEDA TECNICA" Technical Details he cites as part of his evidence in his 0846 papers say about that? Just asking.

 

Hypothetically, Your mother in law disowned her daughter.....

....are you still married or did the disowning by her mother render your wife non-existent?

 

My mother in law didn't destroy/murder my wife so she still exists. However Jim's mother in law of this particular spouse did destroy/murder her so she is non existent. Hypothetically.

 

Ferrari did NOT "destroy/murder" the collection of tubing that they commissioned when creating the chassis, they merely noted in their paperwork that for them the car was dismantled. The chassis was discarded......and later rescued to be reassembled. It remains the same collection of tubing (and now many original parts) that was originally created and traveled through time and space at LeMans, the Targa and so on. Is it a completely original car...no, it went through many changes as most of the comp cars did. Is it 0846.......the metal says yes.

You can't logically, on the one hand, argue that 0858 it indeed 0858 again, yet hold that 0846 no longer exists because of the alterations that it received throughout its existence. Such inconsistency significantly weakens your standing in the eyes of many relative to this discussion.

 

According to Mauro Forghieri the basic chassis was destroyed. Jim is using hearsay so I will use it too. Details are in this thread. The chassis was "scrapped" not "discarded" and of that fact there is written proof from Ferrari. That the chassis of 0846 was "rescued" is just conjecture with no proof whatsoever.

 

There has never been any question to the existence of 0858. Since it was made it has always been and still is. No inconsistency there.

 

True Ferrari has very clearly stated that P4 0858 no longer exists and that 350 Can Am 0858 does and has since 1968.

 

Take the time to go inspect the car, talk to informed historians, compare the collection of chassis alterations, damage repair, documentation and the like and draw your own conclusion. Until then, no amount of internet chatter will change many minds, especially when said chatter trods over old ground.

Ferrari has in the past stated "facts" that sometimes were not entirely factual, but fall somewhere in the grey area between black and white. Because they intended the chassis to be "scrapped" does not mean that is what occurred. Sometimes history works out that way. What one man may throw away, may be valuable to another. Clearly it was, or DP would not have sought to build another one....or two ....or three. The "proof" you seek will only come from consensus over time, not the declaration of one individual on either side of the argument.

Lastly, from a historical point of view, is it better for this car to exist in its present form that you can see and hear or to not exist remaining merely pictures and memories? At the end of the day, I prefer to see the car exist, stories and all, as an artifact of a pretty special era.

 

I have not seen any "informed historian" back Jim's car as the original 0846. Please name one.

Have you been reading my posts about the "SCHEDA TECNICA" Technical Details that Jim uses as the basis of his claim that identifies his car as 0846 because the wheelbase has been shortened from 2412 mm to 2400 mm. Now what part of the fact that the "SCHEDA TECNICA" Jim cites states that the wheelbase of P3 0846 was 2400 mm and that of P3/4 0846 was 2400 mm don't you understand? The metal as Jim and everyone else who's inspected the chassis he has states that the wheelbase on his car has been shortened from 2412 mm to 2400 mm. If Jim accepts and offers as evidence the information of the "SCHEDA TECNICA" this proves that Jim's chassis is not the original 0846 that raced at Daytona and Le Mans in 1967.

I will use the words of Umberto Masoni of Ferrari Classiche in his communication to Jim Glickenhaus to answer your last paragraph.

"We all would like to see forever these glorious pieces but unfortunately the chassis no. 0846 had a sad conclusion."

 

I'm on iPhone and work for a living, so, won't bother to count how many times you've rephrased the same question over last 30 hours - though I'd hazard a guess at 6+. Which brings me to ask on behalf of the substantial majority. I will join you only in desperation and ask;

Please, I beg of you - stop asking the same questions over and over and over and over.

Napolis is already busier than a cross-eyed cat at a rat-killin'.

Between Amelia - when you went into full-on Troll mode, while continuing to call him a liar, 0846 appearing at Official Ferrari Dealership last night and ongoing work with the next Endurance Racer, there are also ongoing restoration projects with a host of other automobiles. Then there's his personal life, which like many other things, even 0846-related, is none of your business.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You're wrong. And you know you are wrong, that is why you wont answer my question and everyone knows this is the reason you wont answer my question.

This is why they are bringing it up.

You, my friend, are showing your cards and proving yourself wrong as you do.

Sorry Miura but you are the guy that painted himself into a corner.

You see, this is where your argument for the incessant need for "the paper" falls apart and hopefully you'll admit that in the end what really matters is what really happened. As El Wayne and everyone else said all that matters is what is in the metal.

Yes, what Ferrari says definitely matters. But in the end the only thing that matters is the truth of what happened. Not what Ferrari says happened. And the answer to that comes through common sense, rational, and logic.

Once again I think all you are trying to do is destroy the link of Ferrari history to this car. You have no desire to even entertain that the car has actually been preserved. You want it dead. That is your goal.

I have yet to see anyone, including you, and I have asked you many many times, to provide a rational arugument of how it came to be if it's not the original chassis. No one has.

Please see previous posts^ I have asked this question pertaining to 0858 MANY times and Miura RUNS from the answer. I wonder why?

It really is a simple question. The only reason I can't see you being able to answer it is that you honestly don't know what 0858 is.

Either stick with Ferrari's word matters or it doesn't. Don't just use it when it fits your argument. Since it has been brought up you have flip flopped between it matters and doesn't. It works when O846 is dead because Ferrari says it is but 0858 is alive as a P4 but Ferrari says it doesn't.

Answer my question and hopefully we can FINALLY get down to the actual worth of this paper and move on to the metal.

Reality is the truth here, not what anyone says it is, and that proof is in the metal.

Once again... WHAT do you consider 0858 to be???? Once again... WHAT do you consider 0858 to be???? Once again... WHAT do you consider 0858 to be???? Once again... WHAT do you consider 0858 to be???? Once again... WHAT do you consider 0858 to be????

 

Sure the chassis had a sad conclusion, it was wrecked beyond what the factory wanted to fix, considering they had moved on. Perhaps Guido didn't dispose of it as he should have and sold it on, or Piper was just in the right place at the right time. Why such a hard on for Jim? You doth protest too much.

Perry

 

Speaking of Blasts from the past like Horsefly/Arlie remember this one from Doug Nye?


"4 - Considerable play is made of a 12mm difference in wheelbase length between P3 and P4 chassis which is evident in this car.

To a non-Metric audience 12mm might sound truly substantial.

It is in fact just under half-an-inch.

I have measured many restored Ferrari wheelbases which differ side to side on the same car by far more than a half-inch…

A 12mm difference can easily be made during restoration/rebuilding to accommodate a changed engine….one half of one inch, the width of a little finger nail, that’s all…"


On page 611 of Doug Nye and Hans Tanners OWN BOOK "Ferrari" sixth edition The specification appendix VERY CLEARLY STATES THAT THE P3 WHEELBASE IS LONGER THAT THE P4 WHEELBASE.

"P3 7' 10.5"

"P4 7' 9.5"

On page 596 Doug CLEARLY STATES THAT THESE SPECIFICATION APPENDICES ARE
"(FROM OFFICIAL FERRARI RECORD BOOK)".

The P3/P4 wheelbase specifications are in appendix 4C.


Years ago I posted a photo of exactly how Ferrari had shortened 0846's P3 Wheel Base to 0846's P4 wheelbase BY CHANGING THE METAL NOT BY ADJUSTING THE SUSPENTION.

The P3/P4 wheelbase specifications are in appendix 4C of Doug's OWN BOOK.
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And if your birth certificate is lost?

 

This is I suppose is true. Of course 0858 which was originally a P4,then a 350 Can Am and now back to a P4 is still I presume. according to the chassis plate just 0858. Isn't this the same as the 330 GTC with its original sn on the chassis but rebuilt as a 250 GTO still officially a GTC with its original sn. In the case of 0846 Scuderia Ferrari never removed the records of 0846 or applied the number to another chassis. The car was only declared destroyed and no longer in existence. The only time 0846 was given the new sn 0900 it was done by David Piper as a "new" car in the UK.Later when J G established that 0900 was built on an original S.F. chassis 0846 S.F. basicly agreed to this as probably correct. So 0846 and 0858 and that GTC should still be considered what they were at their creation.At least 0846 and 0858 have been returned to nearly what they were at their creation. tongascrew