The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

We go to the DNA Your Honor! Blood sample- Metal sample, inspection?

Perry

 

Doug Nye's book clearly states "(FROM OFFICIAL FERRARI RECORD BOOK)" that the P3 Wheelbase was longer than the P4 Wheelbase and the metal, and verifiable measurement confirm that. What's not to like?



http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143015587-post7261.html

 

What's not to like? How about the fact that the above is untrue? Appendix 3: Engine Specifications 1946 - 1972 is "From Official Ferrari Record Book." Appendix 4C: Specifications of cars 1958 onwards where the P3 and P4 wheelase lengths is contained is NOT from the Official Ferrari Record Book.

From the measurements quoted in the book your chassis, if actually made by Ferrari, may well be that of a Ferrari 330P, as that is what the measurements of your chassis more closely match. More proof of the fact that the chassis you have is not the original 0846.
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Ahh! So the truth is finally revealed.

When I asked you multiple times (which you ignored time and time again) to have the decency to reveal what you actually believed JG's car to be you refused and sat on the fence instead.

Now, in the midst of your most recent dig, you reveal your stance if inadvertently.

Why on earth didn't you just say it directly? You are looking for information and discrepancies that support your opinion that this chassis ISN'T 0846. Your posts make far more sense when your motivation is laid bare.

You are NOT the inquisitive neutral you suggested.

 

Just trying to help Jim to find out exactly what chassis he does have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1c1ed72arI

 

I doubt you are trying to be helpful. You can't even be honest.

 

Sorry, can't hear you over the noise a of an ax being ground.

 

Pearls before swine.

 

Fact before fiction.

Still unable to answer my question? I think we should get the fact if the paper tells what a car is or not out of the way.

Cause the paper clearly states without any loose ends left to discover. That 0858 is CLEARLY not a P4.

So please answer my question of what you think 0858 is?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fyYlZ7ZDa8[/ame]

Jim did just fine figuring out what chassis he has without you. Years ago.

Your "help" is not needed.

Funny yet true. As he is figuratively trying to grind down any last element of Grandfathers/George Washington's ax.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

The truth was revealed with his double standard on paperwork.

He doesn't answer questions.

He's above that.

He just asks questions. No matter how off kilter they are, he is entitled to just ask not answer them.

That's the safe way to stay on his side of the fence.

But good job stating that according to Ferrari 0858 is not a P4, glad to finally get that one out of the way.

Or? are you finally admitting paper work doesn't trump the facts of what a car truly is?

Which one is it, cause at least in this case... you can't have both.

 

Ferrari clearly stated before publishing the fact in their sole discretion that I have been the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 that they first constructed in 1966, what department at Ferrari would have to investigate my submission before Ferrari would allow that to occur.

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

Months ago Steve clearly stated exactly what he felt that meant.

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

 

I understand. My point is that he fits his argument to fit his argument. Facts or beliefs do not matter to him. His only point is to dis-credit this car. Rather then be happy it has been preserved.

First off let me say that I feel that paperwork is very important, and I feel that 0846 is entitled to full acceptance with any paperwork needed, till someone can prove that it is not what the logic and facts tell that it is.

But in the end paperwork does not trump real facts and the real history of what happened to the car. Whether that car is 0858 or 0846, what really happened in history is what happened and no piece of paper is going to change that.

He still wont answer my questions. Don't see why anybody answers his if he doesn't have the courtesy to return.

So, once again Miura, What do you feel 0858 is?

Where do you think the chassis of Napolis's P3/4 came from?

 

I agree that what has been written/translated/converted was often wrong but the metal and the photo I posted clearly show that 0846's P3 wheelbase was shortened to a P4 Wheelbase and Doug Nye's book clearly states that the P3 wheelbase is longer than the P4 wheelbase.

On page 611 of Doug Nye and Hans Tanners OWN BOOK "Ferrari" sixth edition The specification appendix VERY CLEARLY STATES THAT THE P3 WHEELBASE IS LONGER THAT THE P4 WHEELBASE.

"P3 7' 10.5"

"P4 7' 9.5"
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As link in the post of mine that you quoted no longer seems to work I've replaced it with the relevant note from Ferrari to me:

Ferrari clearly stated before publishing the fact in their sole discretion that I have been the owner of 1967 Ferrari P 3/4 Chassis 0846 since July 2000 that they first constructed in 1966, what department at Ferrari would have to investigate my submission before Ferrari would allow that to occur.

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,
We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.
We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.
We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures.
Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.
We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.
With kindest regards,
Ferrari Customer Care

Months ago Steve clearly stated exactly what he felt that meant.

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

 

As I'm sure you would agree that sometimes what has been written/translated/converted many times is verifiably correct.

It all matters what the real history of the car is and what the facts verify.

If the paperwork is an accurate assessment of the reality/facts of the cars REAL history then the decision of the paperwork is gospel.

If there are facts present that clearly dictate the conclusion of the paperwork then the paperwork isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Historical facts are historical facts. Paperwork or not.

 

4 sure. The Wheelbase of my 0854's P3 chassis is 2412mm and the Wheelbase of 0846's P3 chassis was 2412MM and the Wheelbase of 0846's P4 chassis is the same 2400MM as P4 0856 and ALL of this has been and can be verified by measurement. This photo clearly shows how Ferrari changed 0846's Wheelbase from P3 2412MM to P4 2400 MM and also lowered the P4 engine now in 0846 to P4 engine mounting height. Doug Nye's book clearly states that P3 wheelbase is longer than P4 wheelbase so the modification done to 0846's P3/P4 chassis makes perfect sense.
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Doug Nye explains the discrepancy/variation himself as you posted earlier:

"4 - Considerable play is made of a 12mm difference in wheelbase length between P3 and P4 chassis which is evident in this car.

To a non-Metric audience 12mm might sound truly substantial.

It is in fact just under half-an-inch.

I have measured many restored Ferrari wheelbases which differ side to side on the same car by far more than a half-inch…

A 12mm difference can easily be made during restoration/rebuilding to accommodate a changed engine….one half of one inch, the width of a little finger nail, that’s all…"


The dimensions in the book Ferrari by Hans Tanner/Doug Nye 6th Edition listed for P3 and P4 do not match those of your chassis.

You have alleged that when your car was a P3 the wheelbase was 2412mm which = 7' 11". The Doug Nye and Hans Tanner book states the P3 wheelbase as 7' 10.5". So there is a mismatch there.

You have alleged that your chassis when converted from P3 to P3/4 and shortened that the wheelbase = 2400mm = 7' 10.5" but the book states the P4 wheelbase = 7' 9.5" = 2375 mm so your chassis is 25 mm or a whole one inch out from the dimensions given in the book.

There are also no dimensions given for the P3/4 in the book.



"SCHEDA TECNICA" Technical Details cited in the 0846 papers/book.

Now let's get back to the details of the Ferrari 330 P3 (1966) and the 330 P3 / P4 (1967) "SCHEDA TECNICA" Technical Details for chassis number 0846 you cite in your 0846 book which is the basis for your claim that your chassis can be identified as 0846. CLEARLY the information stated in it is that the wheelbase = 2.40 m as a P3 and P3/4. So according to that 0846 was not shortened when it was transformed from P3 to P3/4. You have cited the "SCHEDA TECNICA" to support your claim that your chassis is 0846 then the proof contained therein is that your car is not the original 0846 as raced at Daytona and Le Mans 1967 as your chassis has been shortened from 2412 mm to 2400 mm as you have illustrated in your 0846 book and on numerous web sites since 2004.

 

A few questions and I'll be direct, are you saying that the car isn't what it is, that it is not 0846?
Do you have an agenda for some reason?
Are you just stirring the pot in order to stir the pot?
What exactly is your motive?
I'd say other things, because quite frankly at my age I really don't give a s***, but as a former Ferrari salesperson/executive I consider myself to be a gentleman.

 

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I'd be careful with that post.

Miura is sure to shoot back that 0846 looks nothing like the car in the picture.

 

After saying this?

" Does Ferrari sanction/vet information posted on the owner's section of their web site before Ferrari actually publish/post it? If as I now suspect that is the case, I have previously been misinformed by being told that the information posted there is posted without sanction by the owners, and therefore I have decided the following: If Ferrari have vetted and agree the information submitted by the owner, and it is Ferrari who have posted/published on their own web site that Jim Glickenhaus is the owner of 0846, then who am I to argue with Ferrari?"

There was only ONE 1966 P3 Spyder and that was 0846.

 

My head hurts now.... Need more wine.

 

I hear ya.

Just saying that the pic is a cartoon and he'll use it to argue for 15 or 300 pages rather then use it for what it was meant for. The facts about the metal.

 

True. True.

From Doug Nye's book Page 408 "Type 330 P4"..."The wheelbase was decreased..." Books are books and Metal is metal. Five P3 chassis made in 1966. Good thing I have one of them to measure and compare 0846 to. That part of what Doug wrote on page 408 is true... The Double Page Photo of the #23 Spyder in the poorly done/not accurate (By Ferrari when they sold that one) 1967 Daytona livery isn't 0846. It's 0856. Funny World...
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I too asked similar questions many pages back but alas selective reading clearly applied and those questions were conveniently ignored.

 

Jim, the photo of the gearbox/engine mounting shown in your recent posts, can you clarify a few things for us.

I assume the circular mounting lower down and closer into the cabin is the mod that was added into the frame which pulls the drivetrain closer into the cabin hence shortening the wheelbase as well as lowering the cars centre of gravity, and that the higher mounting is the original. If thats the case then the rear suspension mounting points, and any further forward engine mounting point would also have had to have been brought in by a similar distance, is there any evidence on the frame that this happened as well? apologies if this has been covered many times before, but it would help if an explanation is linked to the recent pic.

I guess on your other car there is just the one mounting, can you show a pic of the same area on that car to illustrate the difference.

With regards Steves suggestion? that a frame similar to a p3 frame may have been modded and supplied to David Piper as a P4 (instead of the original one from 0846) which then became your car, is that possible?

I don't know anywhere near enough to be aware of the similarities between ferrari frames from that era, with all the p3 frames accounted for apart from that of 0846 and no spare p3 frames made, could the frame builder have taken a spare/discarded/partially completed ferrari frame that they had available in the shop from another model of ferrari and turned that into the Piper P4 frame instead?