Opinions please on this video

OK, I'm in the yellow Lotus here, and I can't get a point by. This is an instructors group, with unrestricted passing anywhere on track with a point by. I catch the Porsche, no point by, so I let the guy in the BMW give it a try.

He gives up, then lets me have a crack at it again. I close the gap to the Porsche, but don't get a point by. After a few laps I give up and pit.

Here's the fun part: I speak with the guy after the session, and he claims he saw me but I wasn't faster. I explain that I caught him, but once I was behind him, he killed my momentum in the turns and I couldn't get any closer. (He has got at least 70 hp on me).

This is the third time I have had issues with the same guy.

Am I right, or am I crazy?

Video here

3-23-14 Schattenbaum PCA Red Group 3rd session - YouTube

 

Just pit and ask the track marshal controlling cars going on to the track to put you out as far away from that particular car as possible. If you catch him again, repeat. Problem solved.

 

Unfortunately, this is an all too common problem at track days. If you can catch a guy, you are faster than him, but his ego won't allow him to admit it. In this video, I'm in the camera car. The yellow Audi S4 is really holding up the Caterham and my GTI. He is all over the track, and refuses to point by. After an entire lap, he finally lets the Caterham by, but not me. I'm pissed and decide to really push the guy into Turn 1, where there's plenty of paved run-off. Watch to the end to see what happens. Session ends up being black flagged right after that due to an unrelated incident. Above advice is absolutely correct, BTW.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ5yMZKqPbY]CMP051113 - YouTube[/ame]

 

"If you look in your mirror, and there's a car there that wasn't there last time you looked, move out of the way!"

A rudimentary comment from my first track day that has always stuck with me.

What can I say - He's a Porsche driver!

Cheers,
Ian

 

If you get right on their bumper and stay there, most of the time it should yield better results.

 

I was at thunder today in adv group also with passing everywhere including turns. Could not believe the long trains of cars backed up due to no point bye. Even had issues on main straight. So frustrating, it causes road rage like traffic jam on hiway

However, really disagree with above post to stick on their bumper. That is accident waiting to happen. Do not do that. Just pit in and wait for clear track.

 

Which is why I like racing so much. Other than qualifying no point by given or expected. But when I do DE, I quickly point people by and agree, NEVER tailgate, you lose your safety margin for front car's errors, debris, and in general your sight line down track.

I will say I rarely have that kind of trouble, though, and more often track a momentum style car than powerful car. To most people the appearance of a car in their mirrors is a sign of greater pace.

Did you ask the leading car where he thought you came from when in his mirrors? Outer space, perhaps?

 

a few thoughts:

-for whatever reason, the worst behavior, biggest wrecks, etc are in an instructor group. not the super advanced solo groups, instructor group. never figured that one out.

-best advice is to go through pit lane and ask the course marshall there to space you out. that a) gives you clear track (theoretically) and b) lets them know someone is being a bonehead.

-don't escalate by tailgating, weaving around, giving hand gestures, etc. he was quicker on the straights rolleyes, so give up a second or two extra on that straights and that allows you to go full bore through braking/corners.

-I didn't see any blue flags for that 911, so maybe a heads up to the chief corner worker might help in the future.

-find private track groups (most clubs, PCA BMW etc don't do this) that allows for true open passing with no point by. I've never had an issue in those groups and it's the next best thing to....

-racing! if you think you're ready for that, do it. even running out back for a while to get familiar with the environment is better than being stuck in a DE parade.

btw sweet Lotus, is it an S, 240, or...? edit: nevermind, saw on your profile it's a 255 Cup! badass!

 

There are a lot of good comments here chas, keith, and jes. I also think the reverse is true. The ego of the following car often thinks that the Red sea should be parted in front of him. My comment is not directed at the OP, the video is too long, but in general to the classic complaint of someone not letting them by. Jes's comment of going into the hot pit to be put back out in a better position demonstrates the ego of the following car. We all got red mist at one time or another. We all have done stuff on track we are not proud of. Remember that this sport is dangerous. People die even in HPDE. My last race someone got "airlifted" out and I am sure if he had the preceding 2 seconds back the incident would have been avoided and he would have chosen that alternate route. Going fast is only part of the sport. I know the discussion is HPDE "point by group" but if there is ever an aspiration to wheel to wheel racing you have to learn to get around traffic. There is so much more to managing the track around you than the lowest laptime.

 

At the end of it, I pitted waited 30 seconds and went out and did laps at my normal pace. According to my trackmate, I picked up 1.5 seconds not following the 996.

There was no way I was getting around him, by going his speed in the corners I had nothing on the straight. In the end....first world problems

 

I understand what you mean about ego, red mist, etc.

however in a race the overtaking car has the responsibility to get by cleanly. when that is taken away (ie HPDE with point bys), IMO the responsibility shifts to the car being overtaken to let the passing car by.

 

Clearly you are correct. However, when we rely on others to do the right thing and be responsible we have 2014 living in America where everyone else is to blame. That's a discussion for P&R. If we had an ideal world we would not be discussing this thread. We don't so that means we take responsibility to manage our track surroundings even if others should be responsible parties. That means I put my ego aside and go into the hot pits and ask to be put back out with more space. If the lead driver is such and idiot unable or unwilling to do a simple point by such that I fill his mirrors and encourage his spin then he collects me in his incident, who is the idiot now? This is HPDE not racing.

 

agreed.

discretion is the better part of valor, as Bob Varsha likes to say.

 

Thankfully the track company I attend with does not require point by in the instructors group. We have great instructors sessions and I have never had so much as a scratch on my cars. I would think all instructors groups should be able to pass safely without a point by but hey liability is a b____.

 

I had this issue in my Lotus with a Porsche turbo at a track day last year. First lap he just keeps taking off in the straights and by the first corner I am on him again after catching up to him for the last 4 laps so plainly I am faster, second lap with me behind him he gets a blue flag, pulls over, points then takes off. Now we get to the front straight, same thing, he gets a blue flag gives me a point and then takes off, now I'm thinking WTF. Finally, third blue flag he points and lets me by and that's the last I see of him. In the puts he comes up to me and asks me why I wasn't passing him, I tell him I was at full throttle and he says oh, I was at 50% throttle each blue flag until the last one when I coasted out of the corner lol.

He was in a Porsche Turbo, I was in my 190hp Lotus Elise with suspension and brake upgrades only.

 

I used to do marshalling, and we often had problems with high powered cars taking off on the longer straights and causing a long train of cars behind in the corners. Especially Corvette Z06/ZR1 against 911 GT3's etc.

I would blue flag them all the way down the longest straight (we had r/c digital flag boards) and from what I can recall they would yield every single time.

They might drive like a bit of an idiot on the track, but some friendly dialogue in the pits won't hurt. I see you talked to him, but if you went over to him straight after jumping out of your car, everybody is going to be a bit hot headed.

He'll probably get it if you just explain it nicely and calmly over a slice of pizza or drink in the track café. Even though you're in he right and he is in the wrong, a bad attitude or approach won't make him understand it any more. Most of the people who cause trains on track are oblivious because they think they are much faster than they are, and mirrors lie in terms of distance. Once this is pointed out in a friendly manner, things often change.

The tip of asking the pit marshall to separate you is clearly the easiest and most sensible way out of the problem. But as mentioned in a previous post, do talk to the marshalls. They do see it. Some marshalls are just more hesitant than others. If he keeps being a tool on track the marshalls will have a chat with him at your request. (Based on my experience)

 

I've had the same issue with this person three times in a row. Funny you mention explaining it over a slice of pizza, because I did just that after the second time.

I've thought about it a bit, and decided that in the end its just a bunch of very lucky individuals needlessly burning fuel and tires while a billion humans go hungry. It just doesn't matter.

From now on when it happens I'm just going to go through the pits for a minute and go back out. Problem solved.


Cheers,

Ron

 

Sad to hear he's obviously an idiot.

My personal opinion is that the marshalls should be more proactive with him if it's a consistent occurance. (Trackdays are not a penis measuring contest) But as I said, some are more hesitant than others. The thing is that they do see it. It's very easy to spot these drivers that cause trains, especially if you're at a post in a tower or something else above track level. You can see how the gap closes and then expands out of corners. How they interpret the style of driving it is another matter. (Many marshalls are drivers themselves too)

The blue flag is an advisory flag, so I'd rather throw it out one time too many than too few. It hurts nobody. For me I see it functioning as a reminder for the driver take a look in the mirror and beware. A car could be approaching very fast from behind, or someone could be hangng right on your tail. Both potentially dangerous situations.

Don't let bad drivers ruin you experience. He'll learn someday (hopefully...)

 

In my book it's one strike and you're out.
After the first lack of point by, pass him without it - but leave him lots of room.

 

DISAGREE. This is a DE event, not a race; no trophies, just ego's involved with totally different cars, levels of prep, driver experience and commitment all mixed together. For a DE, everyone is there for fun and trying new stuff (parts, driving technique, etc.). Just treat it as if it's you vs the track and not vs other cars/drivers. OP is right he deserved a point by; he's doubly right to take matters in his own hands by driving thru the pits to create space. He knows he's faster (for whatever reason) than the offending driver/car, so what if that driver doesn't know. Why risk car or personal well being to prove that point? I tip my hat (and helmet) to the OP for a very wise response to the situation.

 

We've all been there and dealt with this kind of nonsense and it happens in racing too.

This video is from my NASA race this past weekend. They decided to put 47 cars on the grid at the same time, from unlimited to SM. The two cars in front of me had 800 and 650 hp respectively.

I qualified third, was in the lead by turn 7 (Sebring) and had a 6 second lead after the second lap - then I caught the spec Miata's finishing their first lap.

It had started to rain, I was on slicks and these miata guys can be idiots and live in their own little world on the track. Their like a pack of African bees. The marshalls didn't help either, not a single one waved a blue flag when I got the back of the pack.

As you'll see, I nearly got taken out at turn 7 and that was pretty intense. I tried to work my way through but wasn't willing to sacrifice my car to a miata. To top it off, one of the Mustangs comes through 15 sideways, swapping ends a few times and that was enough.

The solution - I parked the car. Now she's in one piece, I'm uninjured and so is my wallet and she's ready to run at Daytona next week with CCR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKkvgg0NXX4&feature=youtu.be

 

I race spec miatas and love it. Its some of the closest and most competitive racing out there. People I have met in the series are great and could be pro drivers if they so chose Danny Steyn, Todd Lamb, Pombo brothers etc. That being said, if I had a 360CH there is no way I would try to work my way through a deep field of miatas in the rain. I think you did the right thing. Good luck at Daytona.

 

+1

It obviously cannot be stressed enough. Trackday heats aren't races!!!

 

All of the problems I've had with the "left-lane dicks" who won't give a point-by have really been the fault of the flag workers. At events where the marshals and flag workers are paying attention, they give a blue flag to a car that is holding up others, and if that car doesn't yield, they black flag them into the pits and give them a "stern talking to." And if that doesn't get them in line, they pull them off the track. Play by the rules or go home.

At other events, though, the flag workers and marshals just don't seem to care, as long as there are no accidents. Seems sometimes they are only there to wave a yellow flag or red flag if needed. Otherwise, they could care less if someone is holding up traffic or driving like an ******. At those events, I watch out for myself even more than normal, because inevitably, some folks end up taking the law into their own hands, pass without point-bys, and generally end up driving over aggressively and creating potentially dangerous situations. I've packed up and gone home early more than once when I've seen things really getting out of control and the people running the event doing nothing about it.

 

Bingo! They are supposed to be an opportunity for us to get our cars out there and run them fast, for fun. No one is in the stands looking to recruit the next F1 super-star or NASCAR pro. Unfortunately, some guys have too much money, too little brains, and/or too much testosterone, and they think they have something to prove to everyone else out there. I stopped doing a lot of these events because they were just getting too dangerous, with too many guys out there looking for bragging rights who had a powerful car but no idea how to drive it.