The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

It is nice to be out of hiding my connection to Tom and he would want me to get back to work. See Lange Concepts, Joshua Lange's Custom Ferrari Work to see a picture of me and a few people you might recognize. The picture of the Westwood Ferrari meeting in July of 2009 has Tom dead center and me to his left hand side. Always by his side, as I was very loyal, to the very end and beyond.

Ciao

 

Joshua - I used to reside in Los Feliz & H-Hills - moved out of State @10 years ago. There's a Member you'd enjoy meeting - well respected here & rightly so - lives a stone's throw from the equestrian stables - very, very nice Gent by the name of Hank Sound. Off to Zzzzzzzz.

 

For the 1967 season the P3 chassis 0844 and 0848 were transformed to 412 P specification. According to Christian Huet's Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412 P these cars in the previous year 1966 had the Ferrari tipo 593 gearbox. The gearboxes were very fragile and while waiting for the new stronger Ferrari tipo 603 R to become available Ferrari used the ZF 5DS gearbox. This change of gearbox and its fitment necessitated a change to the rear part of the chassis and the lengthening of the wheelbase from 2.40 m to 2.412 m i.e an extra 12 mm. If this information is correct this is where the 2412 mm wheelbase length came from for the specification of the 412P.

Chassis numbers 0850 and 0854 used the 2 left over P3 chassis built in 1966 but were never in full works P3 specification as they were not utilised until the 1967 season and started life in customer 412 P spec. These cars initially had the ZF 5DS gearboxes installed before getting the Ferrari tipo 603 R gearboxes so their wheelbases too would have been extended from 2.40 m to 2.412m and had a change in the rear part of the chassis.

P3 0846 when it was transformed from P3 to P3/4 specification for 1967 did not have the ZF 5DS gearbox installed and went straight from using the Ferrari tipo 593 gearbox to the Ferrari tipo 603 R gearbox so the lengthening of the wheelbase was not necessary. As well as this, as it was having the engine mountings moved for the fitment of the new tipo 237 P4 engine there was no need for a wheelbase change.

If the above is correct this is another reason why the forensic evidence may not support Jim's chassis being 0846, as he states that its wheelbase has been shortened from 2.412 m to 2.40 m. 0846 never had the ZF 5DS gearbox so the wheelbase length would not have been changed and therefore never at 2.412 m.

 

How is this a copy as there never was a GTO Spyder?

Perry

 

Tip for you. Read the RM link.

 

Where it says "He almost used an actual GTO" as the basis? It's not a copy if there isn't a GTO Spyder extant to copy.

Perry

 

If you don't think that the Nembo 1777GT looks like a '64 GTO with the roof chopped off you're blind.

From the RM Auctions description:

"To supplement his cash flow Tom became a source of used Ferraris and Maseratis for clients in Europe and the US.

The second key figure in the creation of the Nembo Spyder was Sergio Braidi. Little is known about Braidi other than the fact that he wanted a spectacular Ferrari spyder along the lines of a 250 GTO 1964 version, but without the roof – and that aesthetically is what 1777 GT’s carrozzeria is. Indeed Tom Meade claims no design influence for it and actually almost used an actual GTO as the basis for the Nembo Spyder, since GTOs were then just obsolete racing cars and at least one or two passed through his hands..."

 

Who is lying? Massini, Piper, Jim, Sparling or ......
Cervan carnet 08460 papers who has them? Sbarro? Piper?

 

I understand that it is built along the lines of a GTO with the roof lopped off. But Ferrari never built a GTO with the roof lopped off, hence it can't be copied.

Perry

 

There's no hope.

 

Once again, what does this have to do with 0846?

Seems to me like you are nitpicking with no logical reason to be nitpicking.

Please stay on topic. At least your gearbox quandry is interesting.

 

Sorry to go off topic, just using some of your logic. Please continue with the obtuse 0846 rant.

Perry

 

+1

I've been enjoying it too.

 

There is a difference between being influenced by and making direct copies. Meade like many was influenced by another style and Piper made direct copies.

It's that simple Steve.

The longer you continue the weaker your debate gets Steve. Let it go. We now have a direct continuation of its history from Ferrari's scrap heap to Tom to Piper to Jim.
Pete

 

Gearbox quandary? There's been none for many, many years. Macca was totally right as once again the metal and period photo's proved. The gear box I received from David was 0846's P3 not F1 as clearly proven by both it's P3 not F1 casting typo and P3 not F1 clearly stamped P3 N. not F1 Typo or N.. The metal clearly shows repair after it's Le Mans 66 failure as well as Le Mans 66 Scrutinizing stamps. It was also, as per the pdf., muled by Ferrari from P3 inboard disk brakes to outboard P4 brakes and was 0846's P3/4 mule gearbox before being fit with a 603 P4 gear box. As I said many years ago when I bought all of the remaining factory P3/P4 spares I was able to fit 0846 with a 603 gearbox as it raced with at Daytona in 67. None of this is new. There are clear period photos of P3 0846 with it's P3 gearbox in the pdf. Like many things written the auction description of the gear box was wrong and in light of the very clear typo stampings and cast in P3 typo silly.

 

Your post underlines the fact that 0846 never used the ZF 5DS gearbox as 0844, 0848, 0850 and 0854 did before getting the Ferrari made tipo 603 R gearbox. It went from the Ferrari P3 gearbox which was the Ferrari tipo 593 to the Ferrari tipo 603R gearbox. If my source is correct, the wheelbase increased from 2.40 m to 2.412 m only on the cars that used the ZF 5DS gearbox and 0846 never used the ZF 5DS as your post shows. You state that your chassis has previously used the 2.412 m wheelbase which proves that it's not 0846, if my source is correct, and further may prove that it's not a P3/4 chassis but may be a P3/412P chassis, a copy of one or one that has previously run with a ZF 5DS Gearbox due to the 2.412 m wheelbase it once used as you state.

 

1966 0844 330 P3 = Ferrari tipo 593.
1967 0844 330 P3/412P = ZF 5DS > Ferrari tipo 603R.

1966 0846 330 P3 = Ferrari tipo 593.
1967 0846 330 P3/4 = Ferrari tipo 603R.

1966 0848 330 P3 = Ferrari tipo 593.
1967 0848 330 P3/412P = ZF 5DS > Ferrari tipo 603R.

1967 0850 412P = ZF 5DS > Ferrari tipo 603R.

1967 0854 412P = ZF 5DS > Ferrari tipo 603R.

1967 0856 330 P4 = Ferrari tipo 603R.

1967 0858 330 P4 = Ferrari tipo 603R.

1967 0860 330 P4 = Ferrari tipo 603R.

 

Not saying there is. Just saying at least it was a somewhat valid question versus shooting for the stars with abstract theories/conspiracies etc.

I think we mostly all feel that with the missing piece of lost history now filled in by Meade it is clear cut that 0846 is the genuine frame it has long been said to be. I don't know why you need anymore proof then this and what's in the metal. But if you are gonna search every nook and cranny hoping to, it is nice to see an argument that at least has a basis in reality.

Just thankful it has some sort of mechanical substance versus dribble, dribble, dribble.

 

Er, but Jim's #0846 does indeed have a P3/4 chassis. He also owns a 412P chassis so he can tell the difference.

So again are you suggesting that Jim modified a 412P chassis to that of a P3/4?. I think it is time you really coughed up the reason you are so persistent as I do not believe you want to confirm Jim's car in #0846, you seem hell bent on disproving it ... why?

The internet is not the place to work out a personality or jealousy issue ...
Pete
ps: We have a clear continuous history. That is the best we can do and is what is used to validate any old item be it a painting or car ...

 

What would you do when having original carnet papers of a P car and a spare or period made chassis? Would you stamp it with 000x..

Piper knows the answer.
Did he or his mechanic supervise the built of his cars?
Scratches, dents, new welds and tubing could easily be seen.
Maybe Piper knows that this "0003" is the "old 0846" but because Ferrari scrapped it he could not stamp it 0846..

 

That was my Theory, too.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Piper and mechanic are experts in P cars. Nothing new to them.
this car uses 80%(?) of the old 0846 chassis and many period parts and running gear, but because Ferrari scrapped it officially I call this car myself allways "0846" or "new" 0846. Great car with a great story!

 

The pdf. goes into a lot of this. As I posted years ago when Alberto and Sal took 0846 apart at WWOC they found an 0846 dymo label on the firewall. I asked Piper about it at the time
"Why 0846?" Piper hemmed and hawed and said "Ferrari used that number for P5" which of course they didn't nor as the pdf. clearly shows P5's chassis is not a P3 or P4 Chassis.

When I saw Piper at the Factory when 350 Can Am 0858 was being auctioned I directly confronted Piper about 0846. "What is the difference between a P3 Chassis and a P4 Chassis? He could not give an answer and as the statement and the photo he gave to Nathan years ago to post prove beyond the shadow of any doubt his understanding of P3 vs P4 chassis was completely wrong.

 

The facts make it look that way.

As Marcel Massini clearly stated, a company owned by Piper imported into Switzerland under Carnet in the seventies a Ferrari Chassis 0846.

 

What exactly is the difference between a P3 and a P4 chassis, Jim?