The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Why wouldnt Piper have stamped A CHASSIS with 0846 when having the correct (carnet)papers?
A) he lost the original paperwork
B) he did not like the number ;-)
C) he knew it would cause troubles with Ferrari

If there ever was a 090x works P car and it would have been 'destroyed' and I would have the original paperwork and lots of spare parts and a new, nos, period made chassis and no one was claiming the car I would make myself a 090x. This has happened with other cars before.
Steve should investigate some other famous racing cars. He would be surprised.
And do not always believe what is written in books or told by experts. Do own research and let the metal speak

 

Asked and answered, your honor badgering the witness!

Perry

'I didn't expect the Spanish Inqusition! No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!'

 

Only need to look at the P3 and P4 factory drawings

 

Where can the P3 and P4 factory drawings be seen to look at, Tom? Have you seen them?

 

P4(P3) = 1 . . .[and only P3/4 = 0846] = Solve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I don't believe Jim has answered the question. Where has he answered it? I would like to know what the differences are between the P3 and P4 chassis, as I'm sure others reading this thread would.

 

The above is another misquote by omission of what was said by Marcel Massini later. Actually, reference in the exchange of emails was made to a stamping on the car as being 08460, not 0846. The number 08460 in relation to 0846 is just as similar as 0860.

If you want to see the other actual Marcel Massini quotes see El Wayne's recent post #7166 on this matter here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread-359.html#post143008732

 

I think the important part, that is relevant here, is that the P3 engine will fit the P3 chassis but the P4 Engine will not Fit the P3 chassis, and the P4 engine will fit the P4 chassis but the P3 engine will not.

Whereas P3/4 can be run with either a P3 or P4 engine due to the original P3 engine mounts that are still in the chassis and the added on P4 "mule" engine mounts that are stepped down 12MM from the original P3

It is these dual mounts that differentiates a P3/4 from all of the other frames out there. P3, 412P, P4.

I'm sure you know this already? If not you may wanna read the whole thread.

Also what do you feel 0858 is as it sits today?

Also what do you think a 412P would be considered to be by Ferrari if Piper reverted it back to P3 specs?

 

P4-0900 Photos by paulmacca | Photobucket

An article by Doug Nye originally published in a now-defunct British magazine named Old Motor in October 1979.

I'll post the link in the 0900 thread as well.

I'll wait for everyone to read it and interpret it in their own way before I comment.

Paul M

 

"Yes, I did see-as stated before- the customs CARNET, which is a normal customs document
(import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export).
NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place
without any administrative machines. As I said before CERVAN Corporation (A David
Piper owned company) was the name of the company that brought it into Switzerland. I
wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusal name and I intended to
find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately) When? In 1977, as I
said before."
Marcel Massini

David owned CERVAN when David sold me 0846. CERVAN was on documents David gave me at that time. I believe the payment was made to the same company CERVAN.

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143027090-post51.html

 

Jim: Please would you be kind enough to let the people who have considered the evidence you have presented in your 0846 pdf papers know the source of the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" and/or supply a copy of it where it clearly states that the P3 wheelbase of 0846 was 2412mm and was changed in December 1967 to 2400mm when 0846 was converted by Ferrari from a P3 to a P3/4 which was in response to Mauro Forghieri stating "Yes.The database of the P4 was originally the same as the P3." i.e with a 2400mm wheelbase?

As the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" you refer to contains information that makes you and others believe that your car contains substantial portions of the remains of 0846 I believe that it is essential the people considering the evidence contained therein should see a copy of it and/or know its source.


From your letter to Cavallino on page 108 of your 0846 pdf document:

"As the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n.0846" clearly states, the P3 wheelbase of 0846 was 2412mm and was changed in December 1967 to 2400mm when 0846 was converted by Ferrari from a P3 to a P 3/4, the "bastard 330 P3/P4" Mauro referred to in his answer #6. This is a small but very significant difference that is confirmed by physical measurement of my 412 P 0854 and LS's 330 P4 0856. (Links to the 0846 Papers which go into this in detail and contain the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" of "330 P3/P4 Chassis n. 0846" and other reasons why I, and others now believe that the car I own contains substantial portions of the original chassis remains of 0846 are listed at the end of this letter)"
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The link on page 110 does not work for me. Does it work for you and is the information I ask for above contained in them?

 

The "TECHNICAL DATA SHEET" is not included in the 0846 pdf papers and does not list the source. Please could Jim clarify????

 

This article also states that #0844 was a P3/4 (see page 60): NART's P3 '0844' had been hastily rebuilt by Ferrari to P4 spec ... later on that same page it refers to 0848 as a P3/4 as well ... did he mean 412P I wonder? Oops yes he did as he states that the works refered to these cars as 412P's ... why confuse and call them something else??
Pete

 

The 412Ps were quite often referred to as P3/4s back in the day.

 

The article also states the P3 retained the wheelbase of the 250P at 2400 mm.
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It baffles me that people aren't answering your questions after so many days????????????????????????

Maybe that's because people care not to answer questions from someone that refuses to answer questions themselves.

Quid pro quo Miura SVU, Quid pro quo.....

For instance here's some questions I've asked repeatedly and have still yet to hear your wisdom on....

And I think you also owe the forum a reason for your incessant inquisition?

Is your premise for this argument as follows?: That the frame of Napolis's car may or may not be that of the once believed to be destroyed 0846? And that further evidence needs to be un-covered and clarified as to which of those is true?

That if it is not 0846 it is most likely a frame made outside of Ferrari and therefore the car cannot be 0846 and thus not a genuine Ferrari?

It's just my opinion, But my guess is that people are not gonna care, or should be expected to answer your questions till you start answering ours.

This is not a one way debate led by Miura SVU. I don't know where you get that sense of entitlement from?

By the way. Everyone is reading this post as are you, and everyone knows that you are.

And frankly the more you avoid others peoples questions the more they will avoid you.

As is clearly evident. in your above quoted posts. Questions of yours that go unanswered for days after days after days after days after days.

And rightfully so. Quid pro quo Miura SVU, Quid pro quo.....

 

Doug's book also flatly contradicts things he wrote in that article.

That said in the end books are books but metal tells this tale.

There is only one P3/P4 chassis as Ferrari in a note to me correctly stated
when describing 0846 which they say I've owned since July 2000 as being
"unique". Ferrari clearly described how they modified this P3 chassis to a "unique"
P3/P4 chassis by modifying the rear chassis tubes and adding additional typo P4 front and rear engine mounts to a P3 chassis that already had and still has it's original P3 front and rear engine mounts.

 

Without belittling Doug Nye's contribution in any way, you're forgetting that the comprehensive 1984 book of the entire history of Ferrari until that time you refer to was largely written by Hans Tanner. Doug Nye extended, revised and provided additional material as new information became available after Hans Tanner's death in 1975.

 

This has to be wrong because 412P's have a 2412mm wheelbase and a 412P is just a P3 minus fuel injection which would not alter the wheelbase.

And the only change from a P3 chassis to a P4 is the engine mounts, although apparently the revised the suspension for even wider tyres so maybe the pickup points have also changed?
Pete

 

Steven, you obviously have every rigth to doubt Jim´s car autenticity, unlike me that i'm far from being an expert in such matters, you (like others around here) clearly seem to know a lot about older Ferraris so it even seems normal to have doubts and i see nothing wrong with bringing them to public, providing you do it in a correct way, wich i think you failed to do. On the other hand, and during all the years that the reconstruction of the car took place, Jim has disclosed the entire process as frankly and open as anyone could. He lost many of his precious time in order we all could see this amazing restauration process, providing pictures, documents and statements from people directly involved with 0846 in order to make it as clear as possible. There must be only a handfull of guys who actualy have been aroud these cars, that worked on them back in the day and who actualy know almost everything about them. Jim knows a couple of them and they undoubtly back his claim that his car is the real deal. You have spoken a couple of pages back about "your sources". Can you please tell us who they are?
Because quite frankly, unless Mauro Forghieri himself comes here and states clearly that Jim´s car cannot be 0846 i don't think anyone is going to believe you...and even so, there's the possiblity that Mauro could be mistaken.