The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

2412mm Wheelbase and the ZF 5DS Gearbox:

For the 1967 season the P3 chassis 0844 and 0848 were transformed to 412 P specification. According to Christian Huet's Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412 P these cars in the previous year 1966 had the Tipo 593 gearbox. The gearboxes were very fragile and while waiting for the new stronger Ferrari Tipo 603 R to become available Ferrari used the ZF 5DS gearbox which was similar to the one used in the Ford GT 40. This change of gearbox and its fitment necessitated a change to the rear part of the chassis, lengthening the wheelbase from 2.40 m to 2.412 m i.e an extra 12 mm. If this information is correct this is where the 2412 mm wheelbase length came from for the specification of the 412P.

Chassis numbers 0850 and 0854 used the 2 left over P3 chassis built in 1966 but were never in full works P3 specification as they were not utilised until the 1967 season and started life in customer 412 P spec. These cars initially had the ZF 5DS gearboxes installed, not the Tipo 593 gearboxes, before getting the Ferrari Tipo 603 R gearboxes later in the season so their wheelbases too would have been extended from 2.40 m to 2.412m with the modifications to the rear part of the chassis.

P3 0846 when it was transformed from P3 to P3/4 specification for 1967 did not have the ZF 5DS gearbox installed and went straight from using the Tipo 593 gearbox to the Ferrari Tipo 603 R gearbox so the chassis modifications at the rear for the fitment of the ZF 5DS gearbox, lengthening the wheelbase, were not necessary. As well as this, as it was having the engine mountings moved for the fitment of the new tipo 237 P4 engine there was no need for a wheelbase change. The new chassis mounts would have compensated for the different positioning of the tipo 237 P4 engine mounts so the wheelbase was kept the same at 2.40 m.

If the above is correct this is another reason why the forensic evidence may not support Jim's chassis being 0846, as he states that its wheelbase has been shortened from 2.412 m to 2.40 m. 0846 never had the ZF 5DS gearbox so the wheelbase length would not have been changed and therefore never at 2.412 m.

P4 Chassis.

The P4 chassis used the strengthened block of the tipo 237 engine as a stressed member. Wheelbase length the same as P3 at 2.40 m. There were changes to the front section tubes for the pedal assembly. The steering rack was different.

 

If such is the case, then it actually supports the case that 0846 is P3/4, extant.

Only the narrative would change from "shortened wheelbase" to "unchanged."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No, it doesn't as Jim says the wheelbase on his chassis has been shortened from 2412 mm to 2.40 m, it would prove it's not 0846 as the wheelbase on 0846 was not shortened and never at 2412 mm.

The above would be forensic evidence of Jim's chassis being a P3 type that was modified to 412 P spec (tipo 593/604) to run with a ZF 5DS gearbox and further modified to accept a tipo 237 P4 engine as Jim shows in his 0846 pdf or a copy/replica of a P3/412P chassis with mods to accept a P4 engine, but NOT the 0846 P3/4 chassis.

 

Read it again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Read what exactly again?

 

You have not supplied the information regarding the source of the "TECHNICAL DATA SHEETS" or posted copies of them as requested for the readers considering the evidence in your 0846 pdf.

Where exactly did Ferrari clearly describe how they modified "this", meaning your P3(?) chassis, to a "unique" P3/P4 chassis by modifying the rear chassis tubes and adding additional typo P4 front and rear engine mounts to a P3 chassis that already had and still has it's original P3 front and rear engine mounts as you state above????

 

I wonder why. Guessing he feels no need to. Guessing it matters not to him what you think.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143027761-post7409.html

 

Bump

Why wouldnt Piper have stamped A CHASSIS with 0846 when having the correct (carnet)papers?
A) he lost the original paperwork
B) he did not like the number ;-)
C) he knew it would cause troubles with Ferrari

 

Unless I missed something, the modifications are for motor mounts, and these are unique to 0846. The gearbox doesn't mount to the frame. I also didn't think Jim's car had a ZF transmission in it at any time.

Perry

 

I pick "C" Tom..what do you think??

 

I'd further the guess with if he had one registered as 0846 they would find out he was making the other 0900's.

That would be a great deal today as now the historical value far outweighs selling recreations but back then he prob could have made more selling multiple race cars. As we all know now, back then old original race cars weren't worth much when you could sell three for more money.

 

Correct answer

It fits like a glove

Even if Piper did NOT bring a chassis to chassis builder it fits. Think about it: chassis builder uses old chassis and knows it is different then p4 as he is building two more and the client visits his shop. The client can easily see one is an old chassis and two others are new! Why would one pay for all labour hours making complete new chassis and you see he only used an old one. Details of chassis also different!
New chassis. No dents etc. All welds same and all correct tubing.
Piper could not use 0846 number!! He is/was good client and friend of EF. Use 0846 no. on a continuation P4 makes no sense! 0846 IS OFFICIALLY SCRAPPED!!!

Piper knows exactly what he brought to shop. His mechanic would also have noticed that one P has a diiferent chassis then other 0900s

 

Because the one fairly correct chassis he got in the deal with E.F. had no sn stamp.He had no authorization from Ferrari to use any Ferrari sn of any kind except for the 0900.As neither Ferrari, Piper or Glichenhaus were ever to find sn 0846 on any part of any chassis Piper was absolutely correct never to use 0846 or any other Ferrari sn on any of his cars.It wasn't until Jim much later got a tacit agreement from S.F. that what he got from Piper was "probably" or "could be" from 0646. Jim let the metal as best as possible do the work. tongascrew

 

Plausible deniability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

My question here would be why, if he knew it was 0846 even though he felt the need to stamp it as 0900 for above reasons, why would he sell what he knows is a real car for recreation money? From what has been said this car was the buy of a lifetime.

 

I believe there was an 0846 marking that Sal had found when they were de-riveting the car.

Not a chassis plate but a marking stating it was 0846.

 

A coachbuilder or chassisbuilder who specializes on Ferrari classics knows how welds were done in the day and can tell you exactly what tubing is new and what cracks were just welded. All dents etc can be seen. And those dents and welds are unique to a car. Sparling and others who worked on the car can tell exactly what their welds / repairs were.
This chassis is 100% the old 0846 and lives on as "0846"

 

He could not stamp it due possible legal problems with F?
I can not believe Piper or his mechanic did not notice the differences between the three chassis they outsourced to a well known italian chassismaker.
Engines in and out of his P cars. A mechanic sees the differences!
He even could have used a p4 frame and stamp it with 0846 because he had the paperwork.
Piper is the only one who exactly knows but will not tell you.....yet

 

Napolis timing was lucky, for one. Simply was willing to settle for a Recreation. IF Piper knew, Piper would have burned bridges with Ferrari, as the timeline and provenance would have been easier to establish - but, still . . . The bridges. Added cash where needed, washed hands of affair & maintained plausible deniability.

Before the PB Auction, I all but begged Napolis via PM to buy the oldest Ferrari, as fence-sitters were abundant. He got that for a relative song, too - as the throng via phone or present were indeed fence-sitters, as predicted. One stunned, happy camper was he.

Timing was fortuitous in both cases.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

According to Piper what design drawings he got from E.F. were strictly P4.Any original Carnet papers for 0846 would be P3 originals. Any diagrams that showed the revisions from P3 to P4 for 0846 were not included in what Piper got. If Piper had these presumably he would have known the origins of 0900. Until we hear otherwise I think it is safe to say Piper had no idea that the chassis frame of 0900 was from 0846. All I can say is "metal speak" to date has the final word. tongascrew

 

That is the $1MM question....but IIRC the car was described by DP as having quite a few original genuine parts which was quite true. Maybe after 30 years he couldnt remember that the chassis had looked used and different than the other two?! Maybe he just didnt make the connection to 0846?

I still dont know what to make of the Carvet Swiss 0846 episode though....thats a really odd one.

 

That's a tough one to answer.

I'd have to think that they would notice the difference in the frame? As it has been stated that at different times in Pipers possession it had both the P3 and P4 motors in it, but who knows?

Maybe they didn't notice it and it is what it is?

Or maybe they knew and thought best to let sleeping dogs lie?

Weird to think that he would not mention to Napolis that it was built on the remains of 0846 to try and sweeten the pot? But maybe some money was better then letting the cat out of the bag?

Who knows. I am convinced the frame is what it is but this is the one bit of info that still doesn't make sense.

It's a shame that Piper didn't disclose what he knew and thus this mess could have been avoided. But maybe all Napolis's research into the truth of this frame was worth Piper not being forthright.

Maybe Piper knew, Maybe he was covering his ass and making a buck?

Who knows.

What we do know is that the frame that was supposed to be scrapped wasn't.

And it is now the basis of a very fast, very original, very cool car.

 

But he could have stamped A CHASSIS with 0846, pick a P4 chassis and stamp it!
If today a p car is wrecked or burned to ashes they will "find" a nos chassis and body and stamp it with the number which is on the paperwork of owner.
It is a little strange regarding not knowing what chassis you have, having correct papers and sell "0003" continuation. Maybe Michael Moore can make a movie for us.

 

I don't think you are the one missing something.

From what I remember the new mounts were to fit the P4 engine in the chassis and put it in a position 12MM longer so the axles would not bind with the new motor.