The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

My favorite of all the cars.

I think the P3/4-P4-412P's are probably the greatest cars of all time but how do you beat having the oldest Ferrari hanging around?

Glad you borderline begged him to go for it. As the car was done justice due to his meticulous restoration.

I believe there is a story on 002 about some kid having it as his daily in College. Was supposedly delivered to him in a dumptruck.

Crazy, if he only knew. Can you imagine cruising the Oldest Ferrari in existance to go and pick up some booze and party favors. Man... I missed out.

 

IF Piper felt he had "gotten away" with fabricating more "continuation" chassis than EF had originally "blessed" be made, perhaps is was best not to advertise that yet another "continuation" was being created from a chassis "scrapped" and left in the refuse bin in Modena by the factory? An effort to "decrease insult to injury" perhaps? Why risk damaging a "blessed" relationship with Ferrari over an abused allowance to benefit from obsolete equipment?

If I had taken the mile, given an inch, I would play dumb should I have extended the gratuity originally provided. Better to play dumb and profit some, than get smart and lose the cart...

Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered, as they say.

 

I understand this. Mostly in the early seventies when the cars weren't really worth much.

I can also see it happening in 2000. Maybe he had forgotten the actual history by then?

But, you have to wonder, with Enzo dead by then and thus effectively Piper being the only one who knew the agreement they had, why he wouldn't try to get a few more bucks out of Napolis by touting the frame being the remains of 0846 etc.

Either he forgot, didn't know, or would rather get some cash versus revealing his secret.

As said above. Maybe he didn't want to burn a bridge for taking a mile but, in all due respect to Enzo, that bridge was gone by 2000.

 

Or let's see Ferrari Spa ask for $6million for the car that was effectively stolen from their rubbish bin ...

Or the tax company comes looking for import tax for that scrap metal that wasn't scrap and now worth $6million ...
Pete

 

Ah, but imagine the difficulty in "coming-clean" with the "true identity!" of this chassis years later - after the death of Il Commendetore - and possibly "getting one over" on the man post-death. One would not be looked-well-upon by the community. And the community was much more valuable in 2000 than when he was alive. Timing is everything, as they say.

 

It's a question that is filled with possibilities. But really it doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things.

The only important fact in this whole thread is that the frame survived and is runnig on 12 cylinders as we speak.

The only thing that really matters is that the frame is here to prove this fact.

Everything else is just speculation.

Glad to see this car put back together correctly and not hidden away, but put out there for everyone to enjoy.

That's what bugs me about this whole thread. The car survived and due to this some people here, for whatever reason, have to give it a beat down in an attempt to cloud up the facts.

But that only can last so long as real concrete facts will prevail.

But I thank the doubter. As he brings up any possible concern that the car may not be real and from this, expert answers and testimony surfaces which drives the point further and further home that he is wrong and just trying to build doubt through Google searches and his "sources" which I feel isn't a stretch in saying they are driven by an ulterior motive and are not at all interested in preserving the real history of the car.

Sad. But luckily the truth will rise to the top and prevail.

 

Agreed

 

And you can have an "Amen."


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We must remember that the differences between a P4 and P3/4 frame are pretty minor:
A. The duplication of engine mounts,
B. Assumed changed to steering racks and
C. Brake and clutch pedal assembly

I say assumed because I am not aware whether #0846 has a P3 steering rack and pedal assembly or whether it was converted to the new and improve P4 format.

Whether or not the front of #0846 was converted to the improved P4 format if you were looking at naked chassis frames it would take an (pedantic) expert to notice the difference. Even once panelled the same would apply.

We are not talking about the difference between the MkI and MkV GT40 for example. The P4 was an evolution of the P3 and the P3/4 was created to test/prove and also to save Ferrari making another chassis.
Pete

 

From Hans Tanner, "Ferrari" 3rd edition 1968.

P290 Regards the P4:

"The wheelbase was decreased by 1 inch to 93.5 inches with a 58.5 in. front track and a 57.0 rear track"

P292

"The P3/P4s were 1966 model P3's wich had been modified by the installation of P4 suspension and the replacement of the gearbox with the new 5 speed ZF, the two P3/4's used the 1966 carburettored engine"

Table on page 360:

P3 wheelbase: 7' 10.5"
P4 wheelbase : 7' 9.5"

Put all that together and back in 1968 the story was that P4's were built on modified P3's with a change in wheelbase.


From "Scarlet Passion" by Anthony Pritchard (2004)

Page 115
"Although the P4 was similar to the P3 the chassis had some modifications ~ but it featured a slightly shorter wheelbase and increased track, these changes where made principally to accomodate the latest wide tread Firestone tyres"

M

 

Except that when they mention P3/4's here, they are actually talking about 412P's.

The 412's kept the P3 engine but had carburetion added so they weren't quite as fast as the fuel injected works P4's.

P4's and P3/4's had the 1967 P4 engine in them.

So... not so sure how valid this story is.

From my understanding the 412P's were basically P3's that had their fuel injection replaced with carbs but retained the frame and motor.

The car's that had a change in the wheelbase were 0846 P3/4 as a test mule for the P4's and the subsequent P4's of which one still exists, 0856 with the other two, 0858 and 0860, being turned into 350 Can Ams in period.

The reason P3/4 0846 is known to be the original frame that was used as a test mule, is the existing P3 engine mounts that will fit the P3 engine and also the 12mm offset in the P4 mounts that were added on to fit the P4 engine.

These mounts are the evidence everyone brings up as verifying that this indeed was the frame that was modified as a test mule for the P4.

 

Confusion regarding the said decreased wheelbase length for the P4 may have come about due to the 1966 P3s, originally at the standard 2400mm, having their wheelbase length increased by 12mm to 2412mm at the start of the 1967 season in becoming 412Ps when the chassis were modified from their original specification that utilised the unreliable Tipo 593 gearbox, to temporarily use the ZF 5DS gearbox at the start of the 1967 season, before the new stronger Tipo 603R gearbox became available in sufficient numbers later in the season. Comparing the specs of these cars at that time it would incorrectly look like the wheelbase was decreased from P3 to P4.

The exception was P3 0846 that never used the ZF 5DS gearbox and went from using the Tipo 593 gearbox in 1966 as a P3 to using the Tipo 603R gearbox for the 1967 season when it was transformed to P3/4 specifications so its wheelbase remained the same at 2400mm.

The Anthony Pritchard book Scarlet Passion used the Hans Tanner and Doug Nye 5th edition of Ferrari as a source of information. Details are in the Bibliography of the book. This is where the information on page 115 regarding the decreased wheelbase must have come from.

Unsurprisingly, Scarlet Passion in Appendix 2, Specifications of the Ferrari Prototypes Section (page 260), states the wheelbase of both the P3 and P4 at 7ft 10.5in (2400mm). These are the figures stated in official Ferrrari press releases and also by Ing. Mauro Forghieri, the person in charge of the creation of these cars.

The above publications have a Bibliography for their sources of information, please would Jim Glickenhaus be kind enough to state the source of information for the "SCHEDA TECHNICA" and "TECHNICAL DATA SHEETS" in his publication Ferrari 330 P3/4 Chassis 0846. As it stands the evidence contained in his publication is unsubstantiated.

 

I, myself, cannot see why a change in gearbox would result in a change of wheelbase.

Yes I understand they would not want to move the engine 12mm further forward (due to hassle with engine mounts) but I don't see the problem with the half shafts not being dead straight if the gearbox/clutch housing required the half shafts to be 12mm further back.

It makes more sense for a handling change, I think ??

Saying all this it would be interesting to measure the location of the bellhousing to engine block on #0854 versus #0846 because if they ended up 12mm different and #0846's is further forward then that kills that theory. That would be one very hard thing to measure though, but you could use the P3 engine mount points as both chassis should have those in the same place.
Pete

 

All 412Ps ended up with and now use the Tipo 603R gearbox, as used in the P3/4 and P4. The ZF 5DS gearboxes were replaced throughout the '67 season.

 

I find it hard to believe you cannot find the Ferrari Bulletins you are after. They were t one time, attachments to the .pdf you are going on and on about.

They are Ferrari factory documents, and they have been previously shared with us on this very thread.

 

I can't see where they've been attachments to the pdf at all. If they've been shared in this very thread they should still be here. Please show me where to find them, Bubba. Thank you.

 

Am I correct that there are no mounts for the gearbox, only the engine as it's used as a stressed member?

And, also, am I correct that Jim has ever had a ZF transmission in it, only the original Ferrari box.

Perry

 

If you measure the distance from the front of the transmission back to the center line of the axles, I believe you will see that all the transmissions are not the same. It has been a while since I worked on these cars but I would guess that the 12mm difference is in the transmission. Changing the wheel base on these cars by adjusting the rear suspension is very simple. It can be changed just by adjusting the rear A-arms , although I would assume the factory made new ones so the geometry would be perfect.

I would think that both engines are the same length. only difference being the mounting points. The front of the motor bolts to the firewall tubing frame behind the seats. this mounting point should be the same on all engine types. The side mounts required the change. I would "assume" that after mounting the different engines, both will be in the same location in the chassis. The wheel base difference will be in the transmission.

It would be interesting to have the length measurement of both engine types. Just for fun

p

 

How does any of this matter?

You can't bolt a P3 engine into a P4.

You can't bolt a P4 engine into a P3

You can bolt either into this frame as you could in the day.

The reason you can bolt either is due to both sets of mounting points still being in the frame.

The evidence is that this frame can take either engine and was modified to do so back in the day.

 

That Jim's chassis has dual engine mountings, for both P3 and P4 type engines is not proof that it is 0846. It would tie in with David Piper using the different types of engines he has or is known to have had in this chassis.

 

Ferrari believes it is the same chassis.


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Please would you let the forum know what evidence you have of this? Thank you.

 

Don't be obtuse. You've read the "scrap" letter.


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