The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

David Piper's bill of sale (I think that is the right term) states clearly that the chassis was made to P4 drawings supplied to him by EF. And again if Piper just wanted to stick a P3 engine in it it would have been a lot easier just to reverse adapt a P4 frame than replica the complete rear section of a P3 chassis ... in the end he put in what he believed (incorrectly) was a 3 litre F1 engine, so this whole purpose of replicating a P3/4 seems to make no sense especially when you consider Piper is not a historian and a racer. Note he could instead have put the engine in his other chassis #0002 (P4) and built that up ... but he didn't because this one was just as easy. Add on top of that fact we know that #0846's chassis was in Piper's possession ... big stretch to seeing him go to the effort of replicating a P3.

At the time of purchase Jim was purchasing a replica made around 1977 ... nothing more nothing else. BTW - There are plenty of replicas driving around in the USA I believe and if like Australia it is relatively easy to register a replica for the road. I'll consider this strange comment of yours irrelevant to this discussion.
Pete

 

^^^ Here you go. See posts 947 and 957 by Jim.
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Irrelevant considering he bought a replica, but a bonus once he found it was not.

Please see my updated previous post. You are really scratching at straws ...
Pete

 

Very relevant. Scratching at straws? I think not. The COO paperwork doesn't describe a replica. A copy of the Bill of Sale isn't in the 0846 pdf. Perhaps Jim could post a copy for us to see? The COO states nothing whatsoever about the car being made to P4 drawings and only that: DP acquired the original 1967 chassis drawings from Enzo Ferrari in 1974; parts he built into a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 chassis No. 0003. Could this have been at Jim's request to get the car road registered due to US Requirements that Jim was under the impression prevailed at the time of purchase? Didn't it come out later in the thread that Jim didn't actually need the 1967 paperwork to road register the car he bought from DP but he didn't know it at the time????
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EDIT x2: I was right, ie:

Piper clearly states that the car is made up of genuine parts that he bought from Enzo Ferrari in 1974, and
original 1967 chassis drawings ... and
he states that "we built into a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 chassis No *0003*"

No where does he state that the car is genuine, just the parts, and he states clearly that "we built the car" which implies that he built a replica. And the next document states that the car has been in his possession since 1974 so as he bought the parts in 1974 one can logically deduce that he built up *0003* after 1974
Pete

 

Er, but that is what David Piper agreed to sell and what Jim agreed to buy. Anyhow let's have a look at these signed documents. Please post copies to the thread. I'd like to find out all the facts as they really are.

 

You'd better go for EDIT X 3 as you are wrong yet again. As you said he states that "we built into a 1967 Ferrari 330 P4 chassis No *0003*" not a replica. You are forgetting here that we are discussing the possibility of the above being a paperwork exercise to help Jim get the car road registered because of US Requirements that Jim falsely believed prevailed at the time he purchased the car, not what the car actually is or was.

 

Steve,

Ignoring your irrelevant direction which appears to be trying to claim Jim is a liar ... heck Jim must be such a patient man, with the resources available to him ...


Lets go through the facts that matter:
1. Importantly we know that in 1997 Marcel viewed the complete chassis of #0846 in Piper's possession, and
2. We have by Pipers own admission that he bought parts from EF in 1974, which included the engine and gearbox and a whole host of running gear
3. We know he build *0002* as well as #0900 (*0001*) and yet *0002* remained incomplete until Max Wakefield bought it around 2000
4. We know that *0002* was built to P4 specs as we have seen photos of the chassis around the engine mount area, therefore
5. We know that Piper already had a home for the, thought to be, F1 engine that he bought (see point 2 above) with chassis *0002*, but
6. For some reason he put it in *0003*
7. We can deduce from above that there was absolutely no need for Piper to replicate a P3/4 to house the engine no. *0003* ... remember he had *0002* (incase I've lost you)
8. It is probable that Piper also had P3 engines because he owned #0854 (and others?) so it would make sense that he might want to run them ocassionally but
9. From an effort/cost and time point of view it makes no sense to modify a P4 frame first to a P3 format in the engine bay area so he could replicate the modifications made to #0846 to enable both P3 and P4 engines to be run in the same chassis.
10. It makes far more sense to modify a P4 chassis to include extra brackets to also mount a P3 engine, remembering that Piper is not remotely interested in originality and history
11. Also it is implausible that Piper had another P3 chassis that he wanted to run *0003* engine in as again he had chassis *0002* which required no modification

Conclusion is: Piper had in his possession the chassis (and many other remains of) #0846, he had an engine and gearbox and bodywork, etc. so he put them together. I suspect he choose to do this to #0846 by chance or because he really did have a P3 engine that he wanted to exercise too.

It is implausible that he would have gone to the effort of cutting up a brand new P4 chassis that he just paid for the making of to replicate #0854 (which he owned and could copy) then to convert so it replicated #0846 when he had that chassis in his possession anyway.

The only way Jim's car could not be #0846 is if:
1. Marcel, one of the leading authorities on historic Ferraris, is wrong and he did not see #0846 with Piper in 1977 in a warehouse for a company that Piper owned. Note at that time it still contained the chassis tag or carnet referring to 08460 (page 22 of the pdf)
2. Piper replicated that chassis before Marcel saw it and then why remove the tag after Marcel saw it and why didn't it contain that #0846 chassis tag when he sold it to Jim

Pete

 

True and Doug Nye on P 408 of the sixth edition he co wrote with Hans clearly stated that the Wheelbase of the P4 was "decreased" from the P3.

The metal proves this is true. The front end of the P3 motor and the P4 motor forward placement is limited by the chassis tubes that form the rear bulkhead. In a P3 chassis the bulkhead is different than a P4 chassis as a P4 motor is semi stressed and additional tubes were added to allow this but this bulkhead tubing in the P3 chassis and P4 chassis and the unique P3/P4 chassis all limit forward positioning in exactly the same place. The rear position of a P3 engine and a P4 engine is is determined by where the rear engine mount of each engine meets the triangulated structure of the P3 and P4 chassis. (See photos of 0844, 0854 and 0856's P3 and P4 chassis in the pdf and in the thread) In the unique P 3/4 chassis of 0846 which began as a P3 chassis the structure triangulates at the point of the original P3 rear engine mount as one would expect. The rear muled P4 engine mount does not align with the original P3 rear engine mount as the P4 rear engine mount is 12mm further forward than the P3 rear engine mount. Remember the forward position of both the P3 and P4 engines are limited by the rear chassis tube bulkheads. That's why the wheelbase was "decreased" P4 vs. P3 The rear engine mounts P4 vs P3 butted up to the rear bulkhead are "decreased" exactly 12mm. On 0846's P3/4 chassis as photo's clearly show the triangulation is at the exact point of the rear P3 engine mount and a new additional P4 rear engine mount was added to the chassis to mate with the P4 engines 12mm shorter vs P3 rear engine mount. Some have noted that this vestigial triangulation was not ideal and Ferrari realized this and that's why P4 chassis such as 0856's triangulate exactly 12mm further forward (closer to) the rear bulkhead chassis tubes. Of course 0846's P 3/4 chassis also has the additional P4 chassis tubes to allow a P4 motor to be mounted semi stressed as well as it's original P3 non stressed center bulkhead mounts (cradle). All of this has been clearly documented for many years. Once again the metal tells the tale.

I rested my case years ago. When I learned something new such as Tom Meade's "Death Bed" statement I disclosed it but Plowing the same ground over and over doesn't interest me. Asked and Answered. Over and Out.

For reasons having nothing to do with any of the above I'm out of here. We recently became a Factory Powered Race Team for our new road and race car SCG 003 which we will be racing and offering road versions of in the hopes of homologating it to race all over the world. We will debut at the 2015 Geneva Auto Show and our first major race will be The 2015 24 Hours of Nurburgring. We have become a Constructor, one who has won an FIA Cup and as our new car will have NOTHING to do with Ferrari the links in my signature are where will be posting about all of our activities including those involving our collection.

If any of you should want to contact me [email protected] .

Peace be with you!

 

I think Jim post goes a long way to answering the wheelbase issue:

Therefore as I suspected the P4 engine is either 12mm shorter or 12mm further forward in the engine bay. That is a fact.

Whether this or the ZF gearbox had anything to do with the wheelbase change potentially between the P3 and 412P and P4 who knows (?). Again my personal view is that none of this has anything to do with the wheelbase change as there is no reason why the half shafts/axles would not work perfectly with a slight angle forward or backwards. Before somebody says I'm an idiot, think about what happens to those axle angles when the car accelerates out of a corner or goes over a bump ... therefore axles are not designed to run perfectly straight all the time ... that is why they have universal joints in them .

But both the differences between a P3 and P4 chassis indicate the engine moved forward.
Pete
ps: Wayne, sorry about missrepresenting Marcel's comments. Please edit my post if you can. Facts are important.

I do hope though that my post #7496 goes someway at eliminating the viewpoint that Piper replicated #0846's chassis because there was no plausible reason why he would do this. He had chassis *0002* to run a P4 engine and he had #0854 to run a P3 engine.. If he really had to he would have made a P4/3, ie. a modified P4 chassis to accept a P3 engine.

 

Pete,

David Piper sold 0854 in 1969.

 

Yeah, you are, while also involving David Piper in the same "conspiracy."

What was initially thought by James Glickenhaus to be a Replica was built in 1975. He purchased that vehicle in 2000. With the vehicle being at least 25 Years old, and it being what was initially thought to be "0003" - it met criteria of US Law, and was legally received in US. 1967 is a whole other ball game for Purpose-built Track Cars being eligible for US Road Use, but was not necessary requirement for import/export of "0003" as what was thought by James Glickenhaus to be a Replica, and purchased as such. Bill Of Sale has been posted - You find the damn thing.


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I still read "1967 P4" as defining what model the car replicated. Could not say 1975 P4 because there is not so much thing.

Anyway just my view.
pete
BTW: If Piper sold #0854 in 1969 then he would not have had a P3 chassis to copy in modifying one of the P4 frames he had built around 1974/5 ... more weight that Piper did not replicate a P3/4 chassis IMO

 

But, isn't it a requirement of the current state of this "situation" that someone is lying? That's the real problem here...when one considers ALL of the evidence, it's clear that something is amiss. Of course, I have no idea who/what...and it doesn't necessarily change what the car is or is not...

But...Reportedly, Tom Meade purchased the frame from/with the aid of Enzo himself. Tom/Enzo reportedly knew exactly what it was.

Tom (eventually) sold that chassis on to David Piper...reportedly (and presumably), Tom AND David knew exactly what it was. [EDIT: this is wrong - see post below - Tom did not sell directly to David - Tom sold to the chassis builders (that David) commissioned to build the replica frames]

David sold a chassis (plus parts to make a car) to Jim G...claiming it was a replica frame made in 1974. David now had no idea what it was...?

The previous three paragraphs do not add up.

 

Possibly your assumption that David was told by Tom.

 

Good news, and I'm glad to hear that!

I'll be in touch.

Ciao and best!!

 

I'm very sorry, but my "facts" are wrong. I mistakenly remembered Tom Meade selling the chassis to David Piper. I re-read the story and realize that the chassis was sold by Tom Meade to "a chassis builder" (the one David commissioned to build the replica frames).

So ignore my insinuation that David had to know because Tom must have told him.

 

Do bear in mind when reading the story that F-Chat's El Wayne knew Tom Meade and had the following to say:

 

Thanks for these comments. From what I have read about Tom Meade he was very dedicated to the cause but kind of lived on his own planet with his own set of rules. tongascrew

 

This was covered in the E-Mail that Jim received.

Meade didn't tell anybody anything due to he didn't want to be bothered by guys like you.

He didn't want to waste time on controversy. Like another member here he wanted to spends his time building cars not fending off fanatics with conspiracy theories.

Bringing up points that have already been clarified 1000 times doesn't help get down to the bottom of what really happened. Please, please, please bring up something new that actually moves the discussion forward. You twisting what has already been said in an attempt to cloud up the facts doesn't help. It's already been covered so it's a wate to bring it up as a "new" thought.

IMO this is most likely what happened. Meade had saved the frame realizing its worth to him. He needed money so he sold the frame to the chassis builder without ever telling Piper what the origins of the frame were. Why didn't he try to get more money for it? I'd say due to it was the mid 70's the frame wasn't worth anymore as a historical object, it was just an old scrap racing frame back then as was valued as scrap. But he was able to make some money so sold it to the builder to get at least some money. Piper being the "expert" never realized that this was the frame and built it into one of his own cars and that's what he thought it was. Luckily Napolis got a hold of it before it was wrecked and luckily the guys at metalkraft spotted some tell tale signs and Napolis thoroughly investigated it further with the help of many experts and the evidence in the frame tells what it is.

Come up with something new or you are just beating everyone down

 

I admire you willingness to debate with blind people filled with self interest trying to impress whoever for whatever reason.

At the end of the day some us enjoy La Bella Vita while others are so consumed they miss the bigger picture.

 

Thanks.

But my willingness is at its end.

I just feel that it is WRONG that someone has a grudge to prove a one sided argument and in the process is raping an important piece of Ferrari history due to selfish intentions.

I think it should be questioned to come down to the bottom of it, but the questioning should be in the line of reality and not twisting what has already been covered.

It's obvious from what I've posted before that Miura's opinion on things changes to suit his desire, not what he really believes.

 

He seems interested only in pursuing his agenda.
If anyone ever defined troll its he.