McLaren discontinues 12C, offers owners free upgrade

concur 100%, no one put a gun to the 12C owners' heads when they were purchasing it...

 

All Mclaren has to do to come out on top financially is discretely cut prices by a 120k by selling directly to consumers from online orders and they'll sell like 911 hot cakes

 

The sentiment at MacLife is just as passionate on the 12C R.I.P. fracas.

esterday, 06:37 PM #42
6th element
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Join Date: May 2011
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Nobody is saying that hardware would be given for free. The issue is intrinsically tied to the fact that the 650S is an unplanned release that not only made the 12C obsolete, it ended its lifecycle. You don't see anybody claiming that the 12C should get all the P1's parts and updates. I can see we are back at square one!
6th element is online now

 

I don't understand McLaren's game. But they seem to have no problem in snookering their customers. This is not the way to build brand loyalty.

 

Go try and place an order for a P1. Several others have come to ML and asked if they could still get one somehow. Do you think McLaren is stinging them along on a $1.4M purchase just to make them look good?

You don't need amazing marketing to sell cars. You just need a car that people want. End of story. Unique marketing is for selling hundreds of thousands or millions of cars, not a couple thousand. The 12C just didn't cut it for some reason.

And if you ever interacted with McLaren as a customer, or even as a fan, you'd find that they treat you very well and care very much about their customers. You seem to equate good treatment and brand loyalty with residuals. What kind of retarded relationship is that? Do I have to line your pockets for you to feel like you got a good deal?

Here are the facts:

You aren't being cheated. McLaren sells a car at a price which, objectively speaking, is very fair and comparable to what you get from any other brand, Ferrari included. It's a $300K exotic with world-leading performance. In fact, it's performance is right up there with cars much more expensive than it. Some times people just don't flock to things for whatever reason. At the end of the day, you got what you paid for. What else do you want? Instead of complaining to McLaren about marketing, why don't you go whine to the people on Fchat who don't want one or who say it's boring. The market determines the value, not McLaren.

Still though, you dodge my question:

Is the 650S a facelift or is it more like 430 -> 458? Just answer it.

BTW, this time last year used 2012s were about $190-200K for a very good spec. $189K a year later isn't exactly abnormal. 458 prices are down $10-20K this year too.

 

I'm not dodging your question. It's a meaningless question but I'll answer it.

Is it a facelift? It's a face lift in pretty much like the Speciale is to the 458 coupe. Actually, probably a bit more but it's not clean sheet. Then again, neither is the California T.

People have known that the Speciale was coming for the last 18 months. They didn't know what the new 458 was like but it's no surprise to anyone buying a 458 for the past 18 months that a new one will appear later this year.

I can assure you that if 458 owners were told one day their car was being made for at least another year and then told the next day told it isn't, they'd be pretty upset with Ferrari. They should be.

"Why didn't you sell me the new car and only offer me the old one? Why not warn me so I can decide to wait or buy now?" The rants on Fchat would go on for an eternity.

Now about why your question is meaningless.

It is because IN FACT one car REPLACED the other. Ummmmm.... the last time I looked in the dictionary, "replacement" means you stop one thing to do something else instead.

Therefore, whatever you want to call the 650s, it's a replacement of the 12c because you can't get them anymore. The even carefully renamed it so the new car wouldn't be "tainted" or compared directly with 100 12c's for sale now on Cars.com.

Even worse, owners are told the reason for this is that the replacement is so good, no one wants their cars anymore.

"We WERE going to make your car another year but no one wants it anymore because the other is so much better!"

Nice way to make friends McLaren.


McLaren said repeatedly that the 12c was going to sold along side the 650s (like the Speciale) until a new model came out -- and not the 650s is a replacement for it.

And now I get to this comment:

"You don't need marketing. You just need a car people want". Honestly, a completely naive comment.

First you don't understand anything about marketing and selling a product. You don't just make something and suddenly everyone wants it, particularly when your brand or product is new to a market (as it is in the US).

You have to work at them wanting it. People don't just knock on your door and ask "hey, is that a good product you have there?" You need to convince them to spend or take risks. If it were that easy, there would be no TV ads for any car. Just make "good cars". How simple? Why didn't anyone think of that before??? I'm not saying they needed to do TV. What I am saying is that they needed to be more creative than just sticking them in dealer showrooms collecting dust.

Second, marketing is also understanding THE MARKET you compete in. Its pricing your item at the right price. It's managing inventory. It's making your best customers happy and understanding their issues while attracting new ones. Its understanding your competition and what it's doing. It's looking at WHY cars are re-sold in the first year and trying to prevent it. Its asking yourself WHY dealers like the one in Philly are constantly selling the cars lower and lower each month while damaging the brand.

Third, if what you state were true (I don't believe it but maybe you do) then that's actually WORSE because you're saying the reason the 12c is dead now is because it wasn't a good enough product to sell at acceptable rates the last 3 years.

So, was it the car wasn't good enough or was it that McLaren didn't do a good enough job in convincing others it was a worthy alternative to other exotics?

Which is it because you can't have it both ways.

I believe the car was good enough. What I don't believe is that you can take a brand that few people know (in the US that is) and ask them to pay a quarter million dollars with 9 dealers.

Saying 458 prices are down "10-20k" down this year is just a little different than being able to walk on any dealer lot and take an immediate 60 grand off any NEW car as a starting point. 458's are still being sold new at MSRP. There are numerous cases of 12c owners losing 100 grand off the value of their car in one year and with only a few thousand miles.

Why did this happen? Because McLaren kept making and shipping cars in the hope that someone actually wanted to buy them. (Or, because they were trying to keep their investors happy which is probably what's really going on here).

Lastly, I'm not being cheated. The people cheated were the people who bought a 12c in the last year with the understanding the car was not being replaced only to find out it was being replaced yesterday in the bottom line of an email.

But, these discussions are worthless.

They are worthless because the McLaren faithful will pat the management at McLaren on the back and say "there, there" while the company heads down the tubes instead of saying--

"if you want my $300K for your new car, you guys better get your (stuff) together!"

 

The 650S is an 2014 R8 V10 or a 997.2 PDK. It looks different, performs a bit better, has some new stuff, and the old version is history. That's how facelifts work. Who cares if they changed the name. The LP560 is still a Gallardo. People know the 650S is a 12C. You're an idiot if you don't.

If changing the name helps sales, so be it. Who cares?

As for marketing, you are totally clueless. It's incredibly common and often the case that major products come from nothing and nowhere. Apple was garbage before the iPod. They didn't even make phones before the iPhone. Tesla made a ****ty roadster that got terrible reviews and that very few wanted. Everyone does some form of marketing obviously, but it isn't even .0001% as important as your product. Tesla advertising spend is almost $0. Tesla sales are killing the competition and, while ridiculously valued, they are worth $25B. Hell, they barely even have dealers. The car, the reviews, and the word of mouth speaks for itself. If you've used the Internet in the last 10 years, it's pretty obvious that a lot of stuff appears out of nowhere and hailed as amazing.

Time and time again your idea has proven wrong. In fact, it's often the people whose names that no one knows who create killer products without the need for marketing. In the case of McLaren that actually have a pretty strong brand with respect to enthusiast. Less so for the average rich guy who just wants a fancy car, but something tells me you aren't talking about screwing over those early adopters.

No viable price would ever help residuals, nor would supply. Use some common sense. Do you honestly think that discounting a new 2012 coupe from $300K to $230K causes a used 2012 $300K MSRP car with 1K miles to drop to $200K? $30K cheaper for 1K miles and 8 months of usage. Hell, the warranty could be extended back to new for only $3500.

Think about it. They weren't selling new, custom specs for $70K off. They were selling cars on the floor. Cars where the only difference between them and the used ones for $100K under MSRP were 2K miles.

The market crushed the values, not McLaren's supply. Too many owners selling their barely used cars at deep discounts, and not enough people wanting to buy them crushed the value. You can't ask McLaren to just stop making cars any more than you can ask owners to keep theirs.

It's crazy that you think people were cheated. If you bought a 2014 12C before Geneva you're either A) an idiot or B) not that pissed because you asked for $50K off MSRP anyway.

I think it's funny that you can't stop mentioning how 2014 cars can be had at $60K off and then saying the people who bought them -- you know, the ones you just got a $60K DISCOUNT! -- have been cheated.

What difference does it make if the 12C is for sale right now or not? No one was buying them, as you said. If you bought a 2014 12C 3 months ago and it were still for sale today, what difference would it make? No one is going to pay any more for it or any less. A 650S is way more expensive.

No one was cheater. They either made a very uneducated decision, have low self-esteem and can't be seem in one of the best cars on the planet because it's not the newest (See: Pathetic,) or maybe, just maybe, they got $60K off their car as you seem to say everyone is.

And no, I've never, never, ever, ever, in a million years been told not to buy a car by a dealer. You think they give a **** about anything other than your money. If they can move old cars at high prices, they'll do it gladly. How many Ferrari dealers told people not to buy a California in 2013? How many told customers that they are making a terrible financial decision buying an FF? Oh wait, in the US they actually make[/] you buy a car you dont want at a price that's too high just so you can get on the list for the replacement to whatever you're being force to buy.

You can't drive a McLaren for free. It depreciates. Exotic cars depreciate. Just go ask the guy with the 2012 Aventador with 3K miles about it. That back log of orders at Lamborghini is sure keeping him in the black 2 years later. Get over it.

And lastly, even to all the McLaren owners out there, anyone with common sense would have said it was a very risky proposition to buy new after seeing what happened to 2012 cars. If you bought a 2013 or 2014 at sticker, you knew damn well the risk you were taking. Sucks, yes, but if you were so worried you'd have just waited to see what happened.

There is no excuse for being surprised by the depreciation of 12C in the last year or 2, regardless of what happened with the 650S. The car was depreciating like a rock and it was obvious to pretty much everyone.

 

A few don't. McLaren F1. F40. F50. Enzo.

Not sure about the Zondas or the Huayara.

You guys are arguing about two sides of the same coin. Yes, McLaren screwed 12C owners. Yes, 12C owners who bought recently screwed themselves.

Marketing is neither here nor there, for the most part. It's a chicken and egg question. You can have great marketing and poor marketing. You can have great products and poor products. Everything goes somewhere in this 2X2 matrix, and the end result is market failure or success. I think poor marketing and poor product is the only combo that is guaranteed to fail. The rest can succeed, or not, based on numerous factors.

 

This move cannot be good for Mac in the short-term. Uncertainty makes customers and potential customers nervous and hold onto their wallets.

Whether Mac weathers this storm and survives future storms is the question.

Nobody "needs" a Mac. Lots of downside to buying one and no upside. cannot see a 12C or 450S being a collectible any time soon. Clear they will make as many as they can sell and then some.

The name has no cache. Few have even heard of it...."is that a Lambo or a Ferrari?"

If you want to throw money away, why not go to Vegas and have some fun. At least you might actually make some money. Worst case is you can know what your loss will be. but then Mac buyers may be comfortable losing 100% of their investment. So be it.

Best

 

I simply don't understand the single-minded worry over resale. First, the car costs what it costs. Any car. So if you want it, buy it and if you enjoy it, keep it. Resale value does not matter in that regard.

Second, if resale value is all that matters or at least is most important, it really is a bad idea to ever buy any new car. Especially if you plan to drive it many miles.

What this debate epitomizes to me is that a Ferrari is more a status symbol and fashion statement than a car. Look at the comments about people not knowing what it is? Cachet. So what? That only matters if you bought to show your status more recognizably to others. If you bought either a 458 or 12C because of intrinsically enjoying the car, then you should want to keep it and then the cost is sunk.

The only negative about 12C resale value is that you are locked into your car financially unless you want to lose a bunch of money to get something else. If you are that mercurial or needful to have the very latest, you probably ought to have a budget big enough that a $100K delta is not that big a deal.

I am just not all that broken up over being stuck in a 12C. I have had over 7000 great miles so far and still love the car and find it objectively better than the 458. And if I do sell 5 years or so in, I bet my depreciation hit will be around $20k per year or less. I wonder what the depreciation will be to drive a 458, bought new in 2013 and sold in 2018 with 20k or so miles. I bet it won't be all that different and certainly not enough to be a decisive factor in the choice of one car vs the other.

 

What a silly post, filled with hyperbole and irrelevance. It does seem to reveal what I suspect of many F car owners, they bought for recognition and curb appeal. And what car has ever lost 100% value? Even the Pontiac Aztec has some residual value. And your 458 is no investment, either. You just stand to lose less when you don't have it anymore.

Your 458 is a lovely car. Buy it. Drive it. Keep it. But right now, you have lost exactly as much as a 12C owner. More, actually, as a 12C can be had at a big discount. My "loss" on my 12C is the price I paid to buy it. Drive it. Keep it. And I am happy to explain to those who don't know what it is. And as a person who appreciates the engineering and performance envelope of an exotic more than the subjectives, I do not regret my choice.

 

What you'll notice is this.

You own a Mac, what they did by suddenly discontinuing the 12c is no big deal.

If you don't, you think Mac owners got screwed.



One thing I've learned about business. If you want to continue to get screwed on a business deal, tell the company you're working with you don't mind being screwed. Works every time.

 

Awesome April fools post.

 

The question is who will buy the 650 given that as soon as Ferrari releases the 458 replacement it will be discontinued.

 

by that time McLaren will discontinue the 650S telling to their customers that they got so many orders for the new 680Spzkr1 and we will debate again and again about this marketing style...

 

A lot of 12C owners also think they got screwed, even some of the 12C evangelists!

 

Pretty simple: Mac made some sloppy (or at least ill-planned out) product line management decisions. Indisputable.

Impact of said decisions? Unclear.

Ferrari fan boys say its horrible and Mac could even die as a result or is already dying.

Mac owners say "how is it bad that 12C owners get free upgrades?".

I love Ferrari's and I want Mac to stay healthy. Why the hell not? Its nothing buy goodness for us buyers to have Mac in the market.

I know some of (well, maybe just the Mayor) say that you are only *****ing about this because you care so much about Mac and want them to do well...first, that is coming across as insecure in most instances. Second, its a bit of a glass house. As many of you (well, maybe just the Mayor) have often pointed out, Ferrari often treats some of its customers like crap.

So? No company is perfect. The management makes choices. Some they are in control of the flow of events and some they aren't and are reacting. Some they look like geniuses and some they look like asshats. What's new?

I'm cheering for Ferrari to keep making awesome cars (note to ferrari, eliminate some of the isolation and GT-ness and I'll be happier) and for Mac to keep pushing with their unique and capable road cars. Lambo and Aston and everyone else too. I want my choices!

 

The real problem is that people feel entitled to residual value for some reason. They feel like they are entitled to more than just the car they bought. That line of thinking is absolutely bizarre.

Other than a V8 Ferrari for the first 2-3 years, there is almost limitless supply of all luxury items and none of them hold value.

I'd love to see the V12 Ferrari owner reactions to this thread. I don't see them ***** up a storm over $200K worth of depreciation. Go over to that section and people will merely tell you that's the nature of the beast and the price you pay.

V8 Ferrari owners, specifically in the US, live in a bubble.

 

Very well put. Who cares what others think? Whether you buy a Mac or a Ferrari, you buy it for yourself and the driving pleasure. The cost is the cost.

Every car will be replaced by a newer better one. Maybe in one month, maybe in 6 years...who knows? Look at Porsche, you buy a Carrera S and a few minutes later, the Carrera GTS comes out at almost same price. You buy a turbo and the turbo s then comes out...etc. If you don't buy a car because you are scared it will lose tons of money or that it will be replaced by something better soon, well then, you shouldn't be buying one. Enjoy what you buy. I don't get all the stress people have over this.

 

Amen brother. Love my 12c and 458 and my other cars. Drive me and enjoy.

 

So, what is the recent update for the 12c that Mac is offering for free? Will it further increase horsepower beyond the last 616 HP?

 

Won't know for sure until it happens. They said just active aero function, but I'm sure there are a bunch of tweaks and fixes just like any update. I wouldn't at all be surprised if there were other improvements they just didn't tell you about.

Guess we'll have to wait and see. Updates will be late June I think.

 

Every McLaren thread on Fchat has 3 components:

1. Bob sounding like a broken record.
2. A couple F458 owners claiming McLaren is going bankrupt.
3. Many Tifosi talking about resale yet posting a comment like....

Laughable and Pathetic.

 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

But I'd also say that not all of us wasn't to keep our toys for 7 years. And if I buy say an FF or F12 I expect a bigger ass kicking financially than the same year/model cycle 8 cylinder Ferrari. I'm not entirely sure why that is, but it has worked that way for quite a while. So if that's part of my person equation so be it. I don't see why it's harped on by anybody frankly.

I think the "look at me" factor exists in any exotic, and I think it's fun. I also suspect either gets plenty of attention.

I think McLaren's bigger issue is dealership network, or more precisely service network. I have no problem buying a car in Dallas. Or Chicago or wherever. But not having anyplace local to service a car under warranty is a significant pain.

 

That broken record is a voice for McLaren to wake up and get their act together.

The only thing pathetic is Mac fan boys THANKING McLaren for discontinuing and replacing their new 12c spider one year after it went into production so they can get

1) Windows that roll down on entry (only button cars --- sorry)

2) An update to Iris because most say it sucks (only Android cars -- sorry)

3) A moving wing change that won't matter to anyone going less than 150

4) "A discount" on a rear view camera (no prices or schedule of availability -- check with the dealer)

5) No more updates after this because the car is being replaced instead of their promise as little as a few weeks ago that it will continue for 5 years as originally planned.


That IS pathetic.


NOW --- I'll tell you what they should have done

1) They should have kept the 12c and the 650s (like the 458 and Speciale), even if just to keep it alive. I would have discounted it at least 30 grand off the original MSRP to make it competitive in the used market (like they have already done in Australia). Dealers are already discounting them more that that so it might stop the bleeding. Sure, they wouldn't have sold many 12c but it would have kept their commitment and it gives a chance that owners will still receive updates. And, it doesn't mean that all the cars sitting on dealer's lots are now "obsolete" and have to be moved out.

2) Given all 12 c owners who bought new an extended warranty for the 5 year period that the car was supposed to be in production (that would be 2016 MY)

3) Followed Ferrari and giving the 7 year free maintenance program to all current 12 c owners -- even used owners.

4) Given generous trade in allowances to all 12 c owners who bought new to trade up to a 650s to help make up lost depreciation

5) Told all 12c owners the car is going out of production when the new 911 killer comes out in 2 years. That will leave 3 cars in their line up -- P1 supercar, 650s exotic, and P3 daily driver. And, if they keep their cars until the time the P3 comes out, they get a discount on the new car (or get them first).


THAT would have been amazing and bold marketing. I think we all would have said McLaren is really on it's game and understands how to take care of it's best customers. That would have made some 12c owners keep their cars and wait for the new one or trade in now for an early 650s.


You tell me which would have been better.

Why should they have done this? Because they are in trouble, that's why. You do bold things when you are in trouble or you die. Doing the same thing that got you in trouble is just prolonging the agony.

What's amazing to me is how McLaren owners just take it on the chin and refuse to listen to any criticism. Are you that much stuck up their behind to let them continue to fail?

They build great cars. I've said that over and over. They just don't know how to run a business and have zero creative thought when it comes to marketing or understanding it's customers -- existing and future.