The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

So do the words of Ferrari matter or are they just humoring us?

How do you explain how the frame came to be?

You are still dancing around who built it to be this way?

 

Incorrect. They have inspected photos that Jim provided.

Also your comments about the "SCHEDA TECNICA" are why pictures are far better than words. Those words will mean different things to different people and I have always read them to mean an adaption like what has happened to Jim's chassis. To remake the whole rear of the chassis so it is correctly triangulated would cost similar to making a brand new chassis ... yes Ferrari had upped their game but in this period they had serious funding issues.

In fact F1 was compromised at that time by running engines some say were based on the sportscar engines ... but research here has shown they did have unique blocks, etc. so not sure there ...
Pete

 

Inspecting photos doesn't even come close to inspecting a physical car. You should read my post again regarding the SCHEDA TECNICA. A "transformation" of the tubular part of the rear frame certainly has NOT occurred on Jim's car.

 

. . . says the photo inspector.


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True. Perhaps you could help then and show the forum just one bit of solid evidence, which doesn't include hearsay, that Jim's car is the original 1966 0846 because in over 10 years he hasn't done so. Do you accept the challenge?

 

Okay thinking outside the box here ...

Has anybody got a period or near period detailed model of #0846 that has chassis details? Would be interesting to see how they dealt with the engine mounts.

And Steve, Jim's car does have modification to the triangulation in the rear of the chassis. Modification means many, many things ... it is unlikely, again, that Ferrari remade the whole rear of the chassis for the reasons I've already mentioned, cost and time. #0846 was a hack job ... Forghieri admitted that.
Pete

 

Please can you show me where the modification to the triangulation is? Where did Forghieri admit 0846 was a hack job? I read he called it the "bastard" or something like that.

 

Post 7733: Thank you for this comment. Very interesting!

But you probably did not write off a prototype gas grille as its producer and holder of all rights. You probably did not scrap just some damaged remains without a serial number and producer tag. You probably did not declare after scrapping your intention to discontinue the grille's existence. And your guy is probably not building – eventually with some recycled remains – a new grille and selling it with a new, own serial number and his producer tag?

 

Sorry! Post 7533 NOT 7733!

 

Ferrari never made an 003 P4. It's/was seen as a replica until discovered to be a true P3/4 0846? Is this the case?

Perry

 

Yes, that's true but the paperwork doesn't say replica.

 

If Ferrari never made 003, then it is by fact a replica. Seems Piper made up 003. If, it's discovered later, it is in fact 0846 by carefully looking at the evidence, i.e. the chassis, then it is the P3/4 0846. I also doubt the factory ever noted each individual change to the frame as it developed. Change first, then pretty up later. These were becoming obsolete anyway.

I think someone has a 'green monster' complex toward Jim.

Perry

 

Are you implying that the paper work is perhaps incorrect?

 

There is a beautiful DP 003 P4 built with many wonderful Ferrari remains, but a Ferrari with chassis number #0848 had stopped to exist upon Ferrari's own statement given in writing.

 

I said it earlier (and got abuse for it) but in the historic racing car world the identity of a car stays with an existing chassis frame or monocoque whatever the constructor or an owner says.

The only difference between this case and any bare chassis that has been long out of the world's sight (such as 0690, for an example) is that Ferrari had 0846 as a works car and wrote it off their official books as damaged/dismantled/discarded (the semantics of the wording are unimportant, whatever some people think) rather than sold on to a customer. But what their books say is not that important, it can mean whatever you or they want it to mean - I used to believe what I read in every book, even ones by Doug Nye...

And if the frame of 0846 survived in continuous existence as an entity through many changes of ownership (I leave to each individual to make their own judgement on that, depending on whether they place total credence on the existence or otherwise of documentation or rather on the metal evidence), then the identity of that car in the eyes of the classic and historic motor-racing world was there all the time even without a chassis plate or documents.

Here's another example: a single-seat junior formula car is used by a rising star to win a national championship and international races, and after its front-line competitive life is over ends up on an island being used as a beach sand racer with different engine, body, wheels, etc.; eventually the rusty remains, of no further use and with the history of no significance to the owner the chassis frame is chopped into sections small enough to be easily stored in a roof space. Eventually someone who knows the history tracks it down, buys the bits, welds them back together and obtains correct period or continuation parts to rebuild it to original spec (for demonstration purposes only as the chassis frame is probably no longer strong enough for racing); and the original rising star, now a distinguished multiple world champion and Knight of the Realm, demonstrates it at major historic meetings. Nobody calls it a replica........maybe because it's not Italian.

Paul M

 

Sure.

Solid piece of Evidence;
M-e-t-a-l.

Not to be confused with;
M-e-n-t-a-l.

Though depending on who's talkin', either could be called;
"Basket Case"


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I can only see three options as to how Jim's frame came to be.

1...When Piper ordered his p4 spec frames from the supplier they happened to have the old one of 0846 and recycled it? I have to say though would they risk that given the obvious differences between it and the others they were selling him? and given they were scratch building 2 then its just as easy to cut and fabricate the tubes for 3 new frames as it is for 2 so why bother hacking up an old frame and passing it off as new and getting caught? The chances of this option are slim but possible.

2... Piper had the supplier make one of the frames so that it could accept either a p3 or p4 engine ( of which he owned both types) so that he could use that frame in a variety of categories, or later on had one of the copy frames adapted to suit. He then sold it on as a lesser version of one of his P4 continuation cars to Jim hence why he is adamant its not 0846 but won't get drawn into the argument in case Jim sets the lawyers on him for selling a hacked up replica p4 rather than one of his pucka copies. Remember when he sold the replica to Jim way back when, that he had no idea Jim would later think he had actually bought the remains of 0846. At the time he was just selling off in his mind one of his less desirable copies to a willing buyer.

3... He bought the frame as a spare many years ago when they had little worth, either from the frame supplier or who ever? thinking it was just an old discarded damaged frame from an existing p3 or p4 (so he could never claim an original ID back as the cars still existed albeit now with replacement frames, plus the fact that the frame number was missing/removed on purpose)
)so he just used it to build up yet another of his P4 replicas, and only later realised its true origins once he sold it to Jim and is now kicking himself.

I think option 3 is the more likely one.

 

So true. Expertise from photos but the experts that examine them know nothing.

Hahahahaha. Sums it up. And that's not heresay.

Without question the most ridiculous troll I have come across on the inter-webs and that's saying a lot.

Ignores all the statements and facts of the experts that were involved with the car while providing absolutely zero substantive facts of his own contrary to those of the experts.

Avoids all questions that do not fit in with his agenda.

Tries one bizarre theory after the other, and when that conspiracy theory falls flat he goes for yet another bizarre stretch. Anything, ANYTHING to try to beat this car into the ground. Why the vendetta? There are far less original cars out there and frames that have been found but not a peep from him on those, but this one is like the car that beat him up in high school? This is not about the car. This is him coming after Jim G.

Everyone is lying to him. Guys who recognize their in-period repairs on the frame today. Liars. Tom Meade. Liar. Napolis. Liar. Ferrari. Liar. Yet has no good explanation of how the frame came to be. Aliens must have just dropped it down on the earth one day.

Look at the obvious Miura. That's how it happened.

There is a ton of proof that it happened that way.

You have absolutely ZERO proof that it didn't. Please state where and how you think this frame came to be. You have not come up with one good reason why it isn't what the experts say it is. Can you come up with a top ten list of actual proof why this isn't 0846??? Didn't think so and everybody knows it.

But who cares. If Miura wants to be the Bin Laden of the Ferrari world that's his choice.

So are you saying it's a real Ferrari then?

You should read my post as a transformation has. You take things way too literally. And cater your interpretation based on how much it can help your argument versus seeking any sort of truth.

WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? What kind of solid evidence is he looking for???????? As he wont accept expert testimony or photos. Good enough for a court of law but NOT good enough for Miura. Except that is when he's using them????????????????????????

In what way do the photo's NOT show what you need to know? Evidence of how they mounted a P4 motor on a P3 frame. That has held up for 40 years even though Miura thinks it's not strong. Welds have been compared. Experts see their work. A clear history has been established. NOT ENOUGH!!!! "I need more evidence but I wont accept the evidence that there already exists! THERE HAS TO BE A CONSPIRACY. Look at this 12MM thingy over here, I have taken no measurements and have no expertise in engineering but it has to be wrong. IT JUST HAS TO!!!!!!"

Honestly, at this point this is just completely cuckoo's nest. It would be one thing if he had any theory or evidence to the contrary but all he comes up with is pie in the sky theories and refutes common logic. The only result is the clogging up of this thread and the clouding up of the true history of 0846.

I find this to be wrong and can only suggest that anyone that doesn't believe in what Miura is doing to put him on ignore like so many others have. Responding to him just stokes the completely irrational fire. There is no reason to support his defamation of the car with no evidence to the contrary.

Napolis was smart enough to do this. I feel it's all time we learn a lesson from him. Too much time wasted talking to someone that has a burning desire to de-credit a car no matter what.

 

#0846 - as a works car - was written off and remains scrapped from Ferrari as the car's owner, creator and holder of all rights with the clear intention to discontinue the car's life and existence. #0846 had stopped to exist like Ferrari confirms in writing. If really some remains were later used in DP's P4 003, these parts would have become part of this very identity and had certainly not converted this creation in Ferrari's #0846.

 

You can continue to repeat this opinion as often as you like. Heck, why not post it 100 more times? Repetition doesn't add value to the discussion or validity to your claims.

The stroke of a pen doesn't have the power to wipe anything out of existence.

>8^)
ER

 

Gotta be a German Lawyer with a Nietzsche "God Is Dead" Fixation.


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Do you read the thread? AFAICS the 1967 Certificate of Origin was a paperwork exercise to help Jim register the car for road use to comply to Emission Regulations Jim wrongly thought prevailed at the time he purchased the P4 replica 003.

The real original 0846 would have had plenty of time to be prettied up, even if it wasn't the case as newly converted to P3/4 specification, as it went from the Daytona testing in December, 1966: to winning the Daytona 24 hours in Ferbruary, 67; winning Le mans Test Days in April, 67; DNF at the Targo Florio, May, 67; DNF at Le Mans, June, 67.

There is no evidence this chassis is the original 1966 0846 P3/4. Please show the forum some.

 

Obviously not being able to meet the challenge and offer the forum any evidence whatsoever, feeling belittled and in your insecurity you resort to personal attack. What a way for a Ferrari Chat Moderator to lead by example.

 

Frankly I am quite surprised they have been so tolerant of all of your repeated indiscretions.

>8^)
ER

 

When we're done here can we move on to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?