The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Not by his hand.

Only way that will happen is if we ignore him or he gets banned.

Can't stop a crackhead from sucking on the pipe if you're handing him baggies.

 

Miura who?

 

And the villagers rejoiced.

And there's those that say I never contribute anything to F-Chat.

 

You are twisting words. I never said that you claimed anything. What I am asking is, why is it that you do not think that this chassis is 0846? You ask for proof (which I believe has been abundant) that it is 0846. You must have your reason(s), yet you avoid answering. You have continued down this path for far too long. What is it that has you doubting the authenticity of 0846? It is a simple question.

 

I have fmanny (or whatever the hell he currently calls himself) and Peloton on "ignore." There is one other poster (who believes 9/11 was an inside job) and I never respond to him.

In my opinion, you have become worse than all of those others combined. You don't seem to know the truth--you claim you weren't/aren't looking for a job, while your owns posts betray you. You now have moderators posting reams of data to show you for your true colors and you dare come on here and say that Vangool is full of ________.

What a freaking joke.

Please mods, I hardly ever support a ban, but you guys have to look at this character a little more closely.

 

Ding ding ding. Seems we've hit upon someting there.

If the court system is happy to accept it, Ferrari accepts it, I'd say it's a done deal. If Ferrari had a problem with it, it would have been seized as their property and not returned to Jim.

Perry

 

How is he not looking for a job? Have you seen his profile?

"About miurasv

Full Name
Steven Robertson
Location
Cardiff, UK
Homepage
Seeking Position as Car Sales/Sales Executive. Willing to relocate.
Personal Ferraris
Totally dedicated to the responsibilities of any position held. Excellent sales, rapport building and negotiation skills. Lifelong passion for and comprehensive knowledge of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Porsche and other sports and prestige cars.
Wanted Cars
Supercar and classic sports car sales experience as well as working at Audi, Alfa Romeo, Land Rover and Volvo main dealers.
Other Cars Owned
Enthusiasm sells!!! I'm enthusiastic, pay attention to detail, always exercise due diligence and go the extra mile to identify and exceed customer needs.
Interests
Cars, Motor Bikes, Watches
Occupation
Seeking Position as Car Sales/Sales Executive. Willing to relocate. "

I rarely believe in the ban also, but when it comes to trolls that are here to do nothing but aggravate.

Ban.

Jim goes out of his way to document his car probably better and more publicly then anyone ever and for all that he has to deal with this guy instead of his thread being about the actual car.

No one wants to read through this thing anymore because it is filled with crap instead of knowledge.

It's guys like this that make car owners want to keep their cars hidden behind locked doors instead of sharing them.

Ban.

 

It's that last bit that's the worst.

 

Steve, you have exposed your doubts and shared your theories as best as you could....no one seem's to believe them. Jim as done all he could to explain the origins and the autenticity of his car, and he as done it in the best possible way because clearly everyone believes him. This much said, i think it would be foolish from you to porsue this debate.
You don't belive Jim's acr is 0845, thats fine, it´s your opinion, obviously the rest of us differ from it, it´s also our opinion and our right, and you're not going to change that.
let it be while you still can.

 

Noted.

I don't mean these as insults though. To me they are more or less truths about the situation at hand. They are comparative arguments.

I.E. I am not insulting Steve by saying he is a crackhead. I am saying that responding to him is the same thing as giving a crack head more crack. And so on and so forth.

 

I feel that most of us here are trying to do that and thus why we are so frustrated.

But I will keep my head in check and construct more civil arguments.

 

Agreed.

Can we all look at this from a research point of view. Heresay and opinions will never resolve this. What we need is proof via photos or documentation/drawings.

How I see this being 100% resolved:
1. Muirasu, or somebody else, finds a period photo or drawing showing the original engine mount modifications of #0846 and they DON'T look like Jim's car = Jim's car is NOT #0846
2. Somebody else finds a period photo or drawing showing the original engine mount modifications of #0846 and the DO look like Jim's car = Jim's car is very likely #0846

There is no other way to prove the "metal" is actually #0846. There are many things in the metal that indicate it is, but nothing will confirm this more than a period photo or drawing showing the engine mount modifications.

Even the talk about the steering rack and pedals being modified to P4 specs will not confirm this because we do not know if this was definitely done to #0846 BUT we absolutely do know that a P4 engine was put in a P3 frame with modifications because we have many photos of #0846 with the P4 engine, or at least from 1967 when it was in P3/4 form and no longer a P3.

ps: Note I've read that factory P3's were also fuel injected but I've never, as far as I am aware, seen a photo of this installation. I have assumed that the injection is between the V, not between the cams like a P4 engine. Is this correct?

So can we please stop arguing here with pointless opinions but do what I have been doing for the last few days and search for period photos. Even a period model, as I posted between the arguing a few pages back, would be interesting as some models are quite accurate in their details and models are usually made from drawings of the real thing ... so does anybody have a 60's or 70's model of #0846 that has an opening engine cover?

Somewhere there is a great photo of the Ferrari team mechanics lifting in an engine to one P4 or was it #0846? ... I'd love to have a look at that again. If it was #0846 and the adaption pieces were already bolted to the engine that would be great to analyse. I assume it is not #0846 though as surely we would have already discovered this .
Pete

 

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.

 

A photo of an engine mount adaption is what we need. It would be hard to prove just via a photo of some other welds.

I believe that 99% of people would be convinced with all the current evidence AND non-written evidence that the Scheda Technica modifications to convert a P3 to a P3/4 are as per Jim's car. Words can mean many things to different people, but drawings and photos simply tell facts.

Is there a photo like this? ... maybe not but looking for it is likely more fruitful than slagging each other off here
Pete

 

Try searching Henri baigent , if he made a p4 it will be perfect down to the smallest rivet.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Beg to differ ... For example his 250GTO model's windscreen is the wrong angle making it look like a Datsun replica.

Anyway his P4 would be too small
Pete

 

Agree but the technical details are what your looking for.

 

Vizsla . . . did you ever get your proof?

Silly, me, I know you didn't. I just wanted to bump this post to see if there was a response.

Crickets.

 

Of course not.

 

Sorry...I'm just trying to keep up with the facts...(and since it seems to matter, my position is that the car is probably 0846 - enough evidence has been presented to satisfy a civil case...NOT a criminal case)

When did a US court offer an opinion on the identity of the car? Ditto an Italian court?

My biggest problem with the evidence is that some of it obfuscates the "case."

E.G., the fact that the NY DMV has given title/registration as Ferrari 0846 should be left out of the argument (IMO). To me, that just smacks of desperation and muddies the rest of the argument. In this case, it's a piece of paper that was conjured in the last decade, or so...nothing at all meaningful to the proof of the identity. I've been in the motorcycle and automotive business for almost 20 years...I've seen ALL sorts of funny stuff fly right through DMVs...they are not historians.

Same with a photo of "a P chassis" being delivered to David Piper on the same page where we are told a story about Tom Meade and 0846...no lies were told, but it does muddy the waters...intentional or not...obfuscation. Put the picture in the overall document and caption it so there is no question that it is NOT 0846 being delivered. Again, everything (the way it is) is factual...but presented in a way that might be confusing.

Take away the sleight-of-hand take away the irrelevant...let the solid evidence speak for itself. THAT would strengthen the case, IMO. Right now, it's almost like a bad lawyer is arguing a good case.

 

IMO there are only three possible options for 0846

1 - It is a complete fake built on a replica P3 chassis that has been created at some point, but not while owned by Piper because he never had the P3 chassis plans....... That we know of. By whom and when could this have been done?

2 - It was built on a replica P4 chassis and Piper through complete lack of care and uderstanding allowed his crew to add the specific modifications that were fitted to P3/4 #0846 but then sold the car as #0003 because it was still a fake. BUT this doesnt answer the question of why someone in that era would go to that much effort to fake a P3/4 when they were just trying to build replica P4's. For example, why would the chassis show accident damage and repair?, if it is a fake and hasnt been crashed since its build date.

3 - It is actually the chassis of #0846 and was built up as a P4 replica because Piper (well his mechanics) really didnt understand nor care what it was. Just look at the fake 917 or #0858 that he built. I dont believe Piper is one to concern himself with accuracy.

Some years back when I first read the thread I thought probably option 2 and some wishfull thinking. Now I read it and I would swear its option 3. There are too many pieces of the story that match option 3 for it to be coincidence.

Anything less than absolute scientific evidence will not stop the haters hating. In this case scientific evidence would be continuous history (which we cant have after the fact) and/ or evidence such as photo's that Luigi took the chassis out of the bin on this date and that had specifically this attachment that was only fitted to #0846. Short of that sort of evidence this thread will continue forever

But for the rest of us, I would think the proof thats already out there will be enough ... Timmmmmy

 

Sorry mate ... embarrassed to say the penny has just dropped, ie. has Henri made a P3/4 model. It does not appear that he has, but I'll have another look.

Thanks
Pete

 

Does anybody own this model?, found on eBay: GMP 1 18 1967 Ferrari 330 P3 4 24 Hour of Le Mans Winner N º23 RARE | eBay

Very detailed ... and should say Daytona winner, not Le Mans though
Pete