The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The idea that if you repeat something often enough it will gain acceptance is an old and nasty idea.

 

Here's something that may be significant for the case of Jim's chassis matching the characteristics of a P3 on its P3 mountings or P4. I do remain objective in my search for the truth.

As I said I've just noticed that the Ferrari web site actually states that the P4 Chassis was slightly shorter than the P3. Notice it says "Chassis" and not "Wheelbase". But, if you look at the wheelbase lengths on the site for both P3 and P4 it states them both at 2400 mm. However, with the statement that the P4 chassis is slightly shorter with the wheelbase lengths the same you'd think that the total length of the P4 must be shorter, but the stated lengths are 4185mm for the P4 and 4170mm for the P3 so the P4 is longer. So when they are referring to the Chassis do they really mean the Wheelbase? Or does a longer body sit on the shorter total length of the P4 chassis? Perhaps it's worth asking Ferrari for clarification?

Another thing the web site says is that the P3 uses the engine and gearbox as an integral part of the structure. This is something that's normally only said of the P4 and much is made of the P4's strengthened, ribbed block being used as a stressed member enhancing the rigidity of the frame. That said the chassis of the P3 and P4 do look very similar.
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I don't understand why some of you are calling for a ban on miurasv.

He is raising some good questions, and from what I can tell from reading this entire thread, they really havn't been answered.

There are quite a few Jim butt kissers on this site. It's seems Jim can do no wrong. However much we appreciate him forever posting about himself and his cars and race team, there are many questions regarding "0846" that need to be answered.

Instead of shooting the guy down and screaming ban..how about actually answering his questions. How about not referring to the PDF Jim put together as gospel? I have my doubts about 0846. I wish to be proven wrong. So far that gas not happend.

 

Chassis would refer to the collection of tubing all welded together. The overall dimensions would include the body.
To answer your question would require pulling the bodies off of a P4 and p3/4 and measuring the metal.

 

Thanks. So Ferrari are referring to the overall length of the chassis tubing from end to end, not including the body panels?

 

I agree. If his questions could reasonably be answered.

And then again if he also answered questions that were asked.

But his one-sidedness seems motivated by something deeper then the answers.

Which seems more like trolling then an actual inquisition.

 

What questions, other than those of 0858 which has nothing to do with 0846, haven't I answered?

What questions that I have asked can't be reasonably answered?

I am motivated by nothing more than knowing the truth after having my suspicions aroused by misquotations by omission, statements of misinterpretation, obfuscation and after failure to have the press make statements as asked by Ferrari Jim went on and did the opposite, which I have justified in this thread. Additionally, the P4 family of cars are my favorite cars of all time, hence my inquisitiveness.

So for daring to ask questions which I think are relevant to determining whether Jim's car is the original 0846 I am a troll. Jim is the one who needs to prove that the replica he bought is actually the original 0846. That proof is not contained in Jim's 0846 pdf or anywhere in this thread in my opinion.

You've contributed absolutely nothing to this thread other than causing trouble along with others with the same motivation.

 

...Here's one of many.

And 0858 has everything to do with 0846, due to your paperwork says what the car is rules you used to argue against for 0846 don't apply to 0858. I guess it only matters if it pushes your agenda.

If you stayed consistent you are saying that 0858 is indeed not a P4.

There are still a bunch of questions about that you have left to answer.

 

^^^ In the absence thus far of any proof otherwise see post 7719.

What evidence was it that actually convinced you that the replica Jim bought is the 1967 Daytona winner and the original 0846?

 

That would be my understanding. But I did not write the info on the Ferrari website so it is just a reasonable conjecture.

 

Thanks again. That's what I thought too but I wanted somebody else's opinion and for everybody to see the info so they could consider all the facts for themselves.

 

Engine mounts, repairs, welds. Mixed with a bunch of other logical points made, with no good argument that the frame actually came about another logical way.

Since you think it's a replica and not the proper way to build the frame, can you elaborate why you think it was built this way?

And if you are saying it is not the car, due to this is not the work of Foghieri, then who did it? Cause at this point you are saying it's a reproduction. You are not in the middle trying to see if it is 0846 or not. You believe it is a replica till someone can give you legitimate proof that it is not. As I believe it is 0846 till someone can give me legitimate proof that it is not.

You've already decided on what the truth is. Quit dancing around that you haven't. The man behind the curtain is pretty out in the open.

Well since your point of view is now out in the open that it's a replica and not the real 0846, I guess it didn't.

But it would be nice to hear your history of why it has the two mounts attached this way, and who you believe built it and why they built it this way. Some facts backing this would be nice too.

Thanks. Please inform me of the details of its construction and modifications from the time Piper had it built through Napolis's restoration of the replica chassis?

 

"How did Jim's frame with both sets of mounts, that sits with us today, come to be?"

 

I refer you to post #6150 in this thread, wherein Marcel Massini posted a photo he himself took of Jim's car in Sicily in 2005 and labelled it "Here's 0846......"

That's good enough for me.

I'm gone, thanks.

Paul M

 

Yes, I have seen that picture and Marcel referring to it as 0846. It did make me think as you have but he may have just referred to it as 0846 because it is indeed registered as 0846 in US Law, but that, as we know, does not necessarily mean it is the original 0846 that won Daytona in 1967.

 

So, a question for Marcel Massini. Is this picture you posted your authentication of Jim's chassis as the original 0846 1967 Daytona winner???? As people such as Macca are interpreting it as your authentication, clarification would be appropriate I feel, and much appreciated by the Ferrari community.
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Your silence says it all

 

How did Jim's frame with both sets of mounts, that sits with us today, come to be?

 

How did Jim's frame with both sets of mounts, that sits with us today, come to be?

 

BINGO !

 

I've already answered this question if you cared to read the thread. May I say that good manners cost nothing. A polite request may have yielded a quicker response.

David Piper has previously offered this chassis, DP3 (#003), at a 1987 auction. It was modelled on the lines of 412P #0854 which David raced extensively after Maranello Concessionaires finished with it at the BOAC 500 in 1967. The 412P used a P3 chassis. The chassis was manufactured to original form so it would have been built with P3 engine mountings. To fit the many other engines David has/had he would have had the additional engine mountings built into the frame. The 3 litre F1 unit the car had may have had the same position engine mountings as a P4.

He may also have had a spare frame built in England for one of his other cars as he is known to have done. He simply may have had the additional engine mountings added for his numerous engines that have different engine mount positions.

The damage and different welds may have been a result of David hitting the car when racing it or in practice.
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May have.... Hmmmm?

So are you saying that David Piper, the supposed P4 expert, is responsible for the sub-standard engineering that you claim wasn't good enough to be Forghieri's work?

Are you saying that Jim Glickenhaus had no hand in building the frame to be this way?

Are you also saying that this frame was originally built to P3 specs by copying a 412P?

Are you are saying that this frame was not built by Vaccari and Bosi?

Do you have proof of any of this or is this just speculation cobbled together through hearsay and imagination?

 

Did you read what P4 replica posted in the snap shot miurasv posted? Read it again if you did. That is quite interesting information. Why do you insist shooting down anything miurasv posts?

Why are you so sure Jim's car is the real 0846? What evidence do you have? Other then what Jim himself has put together in his PDF? Please fill us in. I would love to believe the Jim has saved this legend from the junk yard. But so far, what has been presented leaves a lot of holes to be filled.

Jim bought his chassis from David Piper. He has been playing with these cars longer then anybody..including Ferrari. I would think he knows what he built, and what he didn't build. Why he hasn't said anything about this chassis is anybodies guess.

 

Solofast has already said the way the engine mountings have been executed would work, although not optimum. I am not saying the mountings are sub standard, just not to the standard I believe Ferrari/Forghieri and his engineers would have made them. They would have replaced the tubes and correctly positioned the mountings, imo with no P3 mountings remaining. Like I said, whatever rigidity they would have gained with the utilisation of the stiffened P4 block they may have lost by the mountings not being at their ideal position.

I don't need to say anything. It's all in the 1987 auction description what the chassis was modelled on and built to original form with a P4 style semi monocoque centre section so as it's in writing on behalf of David Piper it's not hearsay.

I don't know who it was built by.

 

I am not shooting it down. I am asking more questions to clarify why he thinks this is actually what happened.

Because what he has posted is heresay and not factual. Miura does not accept heresay so neither do I.

I ask these questions because further answers are needed before I can form an opinion.

These are just acusations based in zero fact except another members post. He would not accept that post as an argument so neither do I.

I have based my belief on what has been discovered as to why 0846 is believed to be 0846. I believe in the logic of what has been presented mostly due to their is not a good argument to believe it is not.

He has offered nothing in comparison of why this frame is not 0846 and an explanation of what it actually is. If it's not 0846 he has to have concrete proof , or at least some, of what it is to make us believe it is not versus what has been discovered to the contrary.