The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Start laughing now because Miura has no proof Piper built a P3 chassis.

There is more logic that Ferrari built this then Piper. As it is KNOWN that Ferrari built a P3 that later was modified to hold a P4 motor which is exactly what is present in this frame. If Ferrari wouldn't do it this way why would Piper? Are we to believe this is the work of Piper when zero evidence exists in the first place that he built a P3 when, at the time he was building P4's and had the plans to? And then without the world ever seeing his P3 he decides to turn it into a P3/4.

Does Miura prove at all that the effort needed to do this was done? My guess is that you are talking about having to strip 0854 to its bare frame to be able to do this. Taking off the center section, the gas tank areas, every rivet etc. to get it to a bare frame that can be measured accurately enough to copy. Then after months getting it to that point you are talking months of Measuring, cutting, and welding. Was 0854 available to do this at the time the frame were built?

Miura has no evidence of how these frame were built. Just wild guesses. And will twist any logic in an attempt to win his battle.

But it is not his duty to get to the truth. It is only his duty to serve his vengence here.

Funny thing is that Logically it makes sense that this is 0846.

There really is no logic behind Piper building a P3 and then there being no record of him ever building one.

And falls even flatter when there is no proof of him crashing 0003 to leave the evidence in the frame that clearly could be caused by the Targa Florio and LeMans crashes.

Great thing is Miura shows his hand everytime he lacks the knowledge to answer a question.

Is it the real 0846? It's much more likely it is then some P3 that has no history of ever being a P3 or existing at all.

To prove it is not 0846 one must prove that 0003 was built from scratch.

My guess is that is more work then Miura is willing to do.

 

Isn't that what David Piper has said since the beginning? He built it. The simple conclusion from that info is that, yes...he built it that way. That's what the past ten years has been...trying to prove that THAT isn't the case.

 

Well if there is one thing that the past ten years has proven is people don't take what people say as fact. Therefore what Piper says needs to be backed by fact.

If you haven't noticed Miura does not adhere to simple conclusions.

That Piper did build the frame needs actual proof just as the frame is 0846 does.

It's demanded of Jim G so.....

If we took peoples word on it Jim G. could have stopped typing a long time ago. But alas... people need FACTS.

In ten years there has been zero fact that Piper did what he said.

I find it funny and very telling how resistant Miura is to taking any effort to find those facts. As those facts would prove his whole case.

There can't be an 0846 if 0003 was built completely from scratch.

 

I agree, and by relying on shimming in the suspension arms at the chassis mount position you then loose all future adjustability for and aft when setting up the suspension, as the shims have to remain fixed.

Its difficult to believe Ferrari going this crude route back then, if they went to the trouble of moving the motor mounts, then why not the rear suspension mounting points as well.

All this just to reduce the wheelbase by just 12mm, not worth the hassle unless rule changes dictated a max wheelbase of 2400mm for future events, but this has never been cited as the reason for the reduction.

 

Wrong yet again, Vincent. There is proof. I had a long telephone conversation with an extremely knowledgeable gentleman yesterday who has personal experience of a 412 P and a P4. There is proof in the metal that 0003 was built to P4 plans, not P3. The chassis is as David Piper described in the auction description. It has a P4 style semi monocoque centre section and the rear part of the frame then would have been originally built to accept the P3 type engines Piper had, later modified with additional mountings to accept a P4 type motor. The tubes in the engine bulkhead/firewall are shaped symmetrically as per P4 plans. The P3 chassis tubes in the bulkhead are more trapezoid in shape. Also Jim's chassis has square tubing at the front of the chassis. As none of the original chassis had square tubing at the front is more proof that 0003 is a chassis built by David Piper.
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Surely way back when Jim thought he had stumbled on the remains of 0846 in one of the Piper replicas and subsequently bought the car, once purchased would the simple question have been from Jim to Piper gone along the lines of "Hey David a few aspects of the chassis on the car you sold me could be linked to 0846, especially the fact it can take both P3 and P4 engines, can you bring me up to speed as to how and from where did you obtain the actual chassis? and did you ever have it modified or have any damage repaired"

The answer would have defined the facts for ever more, instead it seems Piper was never consulted and Jim built up his theory instead without ever asking the man who sold it to him in the first place.

Seems a strange course of action, I cannot see why Piper would not of given Jim an honest answer if he had asked.

I am sure Piper and Talacrest discussed the matter during the re conversion of 0858 given the comments made in some of their vids.

If Piper had been evasive, maybe as a result of not realising he had sold a potentially original chassis as a replica and being a bit gutted about it, then the next men I would have been chasing would have been the guys involved in the original chassis construction of 0846, who seem to still be around and then followed that up with a detailed analysis of the information from someone like Marcel. With that kind of backing I am pretty sure the thread would not gone to 2 pages never mind 396.

Marcel I am sure sits in many nice cars, that in no way means he endorses any claims made about them, it just confirms he likes what he is sitting in, which everyone seems to agree is a superb car regardless of provenance.

 

A reminder: I feel that Jim's car is *probably* the chassis of 0846. There are enough holes that I can't say definitely...

However...and I truly DO NOT mean this as an attack or dig...but, Vincent, a few pages ago you were flying the "if Tom Meade said it, that's all I need to hear" flag...based on "the letter" he never wrote. Yes, we must be careful with what we call facts...AND THAT IS MY MOTIVATION. There are a number of things in the "proof of" column that just shouldn't be there.

E.G., the wheelbase. Talk about motor mount positions all day long...no problem. But when a wheelbase that is shimmed into place and could, therefore be anywhere within any of the quoted specs...that's a problem.

 

Good start Miura.

Please reveal your source. Cause at this point you are not only offering up heresay. You are offering up more heresay....

Hopefully this will lead to the road to actual facts.

Also who's to say that the difference in the stated piping in your heresay isn't the results of the transformation you so badly want from Ferrari?

Gonna need some proof. Not heresay....

 

I won't reveal my source at the moment as I do not have permission from him as I type. However, I will be able to post pictures later to demonstrate what I mean. The pics I have won't load but I have other pics on my pc I can use. Got to get ready to go out now.

 

Well based on the article above it seems Kerry Adams is/was the man to have talked to, the way I read that description is that Piper had a P3 replica built, using his previous original car as a basis/guide and utilising his stockpile of various ferrari parts, many of which were similar to those used in a P3 or P4 and then Adams converted it to accept a P4 drivetrain.

This thread is starting to go the way of the script in "12 angry men"

 

Thanks.

Excited to see the pictures.

Who's to say this is not the transformation work by Ferrari?

Guess revealing your source will eventually be important but ready to see your pics and research.

Also the proof of the crash damage while owned by Piper.

Cheers.

 

Exactly, and all these various Ferrari parts from various stockpiles and unidentified sources finally formed DP P4, a new car with #0003 which could flexibly accept - with some modification - P3 or P4 drivetrains.

 

I've never seen square tubing in any photo of Jim's chassis ... ?
Pete

 

At the very front.

 

I agree with you. The facts need to be clarified. And some of these Facts that need to be clarified versus hearsay are facts that David Piper did build this as a P3. tube by tube. Part by part.

And if you read, I agreed that El Wayne's opinion that the Tom Meade letter may or may not be completely factual. So if you read after El Waynes comments I said that I would wait to learn more of the letter before believing it was 100% confirmed evidence.

Although, I feel if the Tom Meade record is true it is a very important piece.

But without it I still feel the logic adds up to it is 0846. But Miura is investigating and maybe he will come up with some facts that David Piper actually built a P3. Not heresay but facts. Those facts will change my mind if they logically add up.

Where in this article that Miura posted does it say that the Frame was built to P3 specs copying the frame of 0854 inch by inch?

To me this is just a general description of the build of components. Not the construction of the actual frame?

The work done by Allegretti would not be the chassis. It would be the body If I'm not mistaken? The Body was fiberglass. If the center section was pounded out from aluminum to be P4 by Allegretti my guess is that they are talking about the P4 center section body panels to accept the P4 tail versus the chassis itself. I guess we'd have to ask the question, would P4 center body section fit onto a P3 frame or does the chassis in this section have to be built specifically as a P4 to be considered monocoque.

Nowhere in this article is there fact that they copied the chassis inch by inch from 0854. It is considered to be modeled after a 412 which in that sense modeled could easily translate to the P3 nose with the P4 tail and have no bearing whatsoever on the chassis construction.

So you're saying that this chassis has a P3 front section, a P4 Middle section, then a P3 rear end that was then modified to accept a P4 motor?

I think factually it is important to decipher when they are talking about the construction of the Chassis versus the body.

 

Which of these pics are more like trapezoidal P3 tubes and which are like symetrical P4 type tubes of the firewall/bulkhead?
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I feel to determine this we will need a shot of a genuine P3/412, 0003, and 0856 in the highlighted area for comparison purposes. I do not feel that 0858 or 0860 qualify as they have both been modified by known outside sources.

Who is to say that this area is not where changes were made to transform the chassis from P3 to P4 motor configuration?

Please clarify that your source, which you wont identify, is saying that chassis 0003 has a P4 front section, a P4 Middle section, then a P3 rear end that was then modified to accept a P4 motor.

In other words are you saying that in the area before the bulkhead/motor that 0003 and 0854 do not match? They are only similar behind , pre-P4 motor modificaton, before the bulkhead?

Please elaborate on what you mean by saying the rear was built from copying 0854 but the center section was built from the P4 plans.

Please highlight what areas you are highlighting as being different or the same as the other chassis?

 

The shots are of 0844, 0003 (0846?), 0858 and 0854. Which is which?

 

We need a shot of an untouched P4 or the plans to compare from. 0858 does not qualify as it has been modified in that are to fit the new body configuration.

The only picture you give of a possible P4 is one that has been modified to Can Am and then Modified back by people other then Ferrari so no way to tell what was original back in 1967.

I will look through Jim's photo's of his frames though and get back to you. But no way to tell what a P4 frame looks like unless looking at a un molested P4 frame.

Hopefully we can get a pic from Stroll.

 

0858 has not been modified in the bulkhead/firewall.

 

Says who?

Could have happened when it was converted to can am By Ferrari.

Could have happened when Piper was rebuilding that area of the frame to accept the P4 body.

As that area where the roll bar is on the Bulkhead is removed to make the car a Can Am.

Also could have been changed when 0003 was converted from P3 motor to P4.

I see the difference you are talking about and will look into it.

Please answer above question of how 0003 was built. Where was it built as P4 per the plans. Where was it built as a P3 by copying 0854?

What is your definition of modeled?

 

Look, Vincent. I am told that 0856 is similar to 0858 in this area and that is original.

 

OK. Interesting. I will look into this by trying to find pictures to compare with it.

What facts are there that this section wasn't converted when and if Ferrari switched the motor from P3 to P4?

Can you please answer the other questions in the post above as per what sections were built to which specification when 0003 was originally built by Piper?

Do you have shots that aren't cropped so tight/bigger? It's hard to make out details with no outside reference.

 

It's a good question as to Ferrari switching this area. It would depend if the frontal mounting points on P3 and P4 engines are the same or not. I think if they are different then they would have changed this area just as I think they TRANSFORMED the rear tubes for new ones on the original 0846 so that the P4 engine mounting points were at the central point of the meeting of the tubes for optimum rigidity and not offset as on Jim's car with no P3 mountings remaining.

My guess is that the P3 and P4 chassis are quite similar and the differences are subtle and in the details as above.

Jim's chassis has a P4 pedal layout and pedal box so I would guess that at the front and generally it would have been initially built to P4 plans with the rear section built for accommodating Piper's numerous engines such as 365 P2, and P3/412P type engines and later adapted for the 312 F1 unit.

 

I will update this later as I have more time to look through the other photo's.

So far I have looked through the Talacrest ones.

I have to say that depending on the angle of the pictures the shape can play tricks on you.

But from what I can see/guess, in the time I've had to look at the pictures, is that the top and Bottom shots are either 0858 or 0846 and the middle ones are 0844 or 0854.

This is based on I feel that 0858 is the top or bottom shape from T-crest pictures and am guessing that set up was built into 0846/0003. I will look through 0846 when I can but that is my guess.

As the other two are P3 frames/motors I am deducing that the ones in the middle are those numbers.

I think an important piece of information to be figured out is whether the front mounts on a P3 and P4 motor are exact matches. Exact.

Also should figure out what changes in mounting are needed to take make the motors semi stressed etc.

Also figure out if this car was ever confirmed to have a P3 motor in it when Piper had it.

If this section of the frame has different mount measurements for the different engines and it can be verified that both motors were seen in it at Pipers one would have to guess that the modifications were done at Pipers for the P4 motor.

Alot to clarify here.

Thanks for the research.