The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Agreed. Thanks for the knowledge.

 

I agree as well that it all makes perfect sense if you just chop out of the story completely any involvement David Piper had in the car.

Thats when it starts to fall apart, Piper was the one who first built it as a replica, and the story of how it came about is described is in the auction catalogue when he first put it up for sale, none of that can be denied, its stated he had it built initially as a copy of a P3 then he later had it converted to P4 ish spec hence all the chassis mods, and he has never ever claimed Ferrari had any involvement in its construction at all.

He has also never claimed that the chassis of his 003 replica came out of Italy? thats just speculation based on the fact his first chassis for 0900 did.

Vincent there does not need to be any proof of this as no one denies its not a fact that Piper built it as a replica, and he sold it as a replica.

Its Jim and you and a handful of others that want to turn a copy of the Mona Lisa into the original just because the copy artist used the same batch of paint and canvas.

Accept it as a fantastic replica of 0846 using period ferrari components wherever possible, including some that may have been fitted to the original at some point in the past.

Kerry Adams it seems is the man who may have the answers, Is he still about?

 

quick google brought this up

Kerry Adams

Kerry joined Frank Williams Racing as a mechanic in 1970, then Brabham, owned at that time by Bernie Ecclestone. In 1974 he joined McLaren and stayed until 1976. In 1978 he established Adams McCall Engineering which has continued, to the present day, preparing race cars and fabricating components for them.

Adams Mccall Engineering Ltd
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Fill your boots gents, Laverstoke Park by the way is owned by Jody Sheckter, 1979 World F1 champ for Ferrari

The auction description was put together well before any speculation was made that Piper 003 was in fact Ferrari 0846 so there is no reason to believe that the description is anything but true, therefore kerry Adams would be the obvious person to end any speculation as to how this chassis was modified.

Whether he wants to get involved though is another matter, I suspect not, what incentive is there for him to do so?

Who knows he could well confirm the alternative engine mounting were already in the chassis, and bingo, Jim could be proved correct.

 

In Australia you are taxed on the value of the car (I believe) so importing say a 250LM to Australia would cost you a fortune in tax.

I would be surprised that England would let the potential $'s from classic car purchases fall through the cracks too ... but I guess you could register them in France or somewhere else and they could just visit England?
Pete

 

Thank you very much for your reply. I, like the others, really do appreciate the time you took to explain the mounts. I didn't ask you for your explanation to shoot it down as the person above has accused me of but he is right about your posts being great as they are always very informative.

I would very much be in agreement with your explanation that David would have used the solution, but only on a replica car he had built maybe for the odd race and display purposes. You have demonstrated that the way the mounts have been executed works as they have obviously have done since David built them into the chassis.

I'd guess when he commissioned the extra chassis he had built in addition to P4 0900 he would not have had any spare P4 engines lying around. Therefore I would assume he had them built to the P4 plans he had but this one to fit a P3 engine he may have had. Surely the coordinates of the tubing could be have been matched quite easily to suit the mountings of a P3 engine, even using P4 plans? When he bought the 312 FI unit(s) from EF he would have used the solution he has to accommodate this engine that has similar mounting positions as a P4.

As 0846 was used as the design basis for the P4, I really do think Ferrari would have completely changed the tubes for new ones at the rear and placed the P4 engine mounts in the optimum position for maximum rigidity with no P3 mounts remaining. I just can't see Ferrari using the solution as on DP3 0003 for one of their works cars. The way the Left and Right Side Front Triangle Mounts have been bolted on will only place half the load it should at the central point of the meeting of the omnidirectional tubes which is the P3 mount. The other half will be placed on the horizontal bar further up towards the bulkhead which hasn't been designed to take the load at all and it also will be weakened by having a hole drilled in it for the bolt.

Ferrari took this car to Daytona in December, 1966 to test the P4 innovations. It was around 5 seconds a lap quicker than the big block Fords. Its speed had to come from its lightness and the agility provided by the finesse of the chassis as it was certainly down on power from the much bigger, albeit less sophisticated and agricultural Ford engines.

The Wayne Sparling weld hearsay has pretty much been denied by the man himself I believe or he was misheard/talking about 0856 that he worked on at Daytona? Regarding that weld on that bar, which looks like a spanner mark, how do you sleeve the bar without disturbing the welds either side?

 

Not hard to find his email address also ...
Pete

 

There is a lot more differences between the rear of a P3 chassis and a P4 chassis than just engine mount locations. If that was all then yes I would agree with you, but because of the other differences your theory is proven incorrect.

Jim owns a P3 chassis and the rear of his #0846 is exactly the same in every detail, not just the engine mounts. The triangulation of the gearbox area tube bulkhead is very different between a P3 and P4 chassis as his photos show.

So either Piper had a P3 rear chassis made completely or this chassis came from somewhere else.

And again I do not believe Ferrari would have modified the rear of #0846 completely ... if they were that worried they would have simply made a new chassis, removed the bodywork and components and installed on the new chassis. #0846 had a P4 engine installed by lowering a P4 engine into the engine bay and then adapting what was there to make it work. A half day task. Once this was done, I believe, they then designed the P4 chassis from what they learnt. This sort of prototype work is completely normal when you have a physical thing in front of you to modify and play with.
Pete

 

Ferrari must have modified the gearbox area as per P4 on 0846 to accept the 603R gearbox when it became P3/4. The rear part of the chassis was "transformed" to accommodate a supporting engine and a P4 gearbox. If Jim's chassis is still P3 then it can't be 0846. Piper had a P3 engine in his car 0003 plus the 312 F1 unit 0003 using the 593 gearbox which is P3 hence why the gearbox area is P3.

As I said in my previous post, 0846 was used as a design basis for the P4.

 

This pic that Jim posted previously proves that the block on his car is actually a 312 F1 block, not a P4 block as he says. Tipo 218 and tipo 242 are 312 F1, NOT P4. Look it's engine 0003. The number on the Certificate of Origin. Where's the tipo 237 stamp for P4, Jim?????
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There are no modifications to support a P4 gearbox. The gearbox just hangs on the back of the engine (EDIT: and top of rear bulkhead. This part would likely be a removable member (?) that would take minutes to modify as required).

Have a look at Jim's photos. You are not understanding what I am saying regarding the "rear or gearbox area tube bulkhead" triangulation.

BTW: You are the only one saying the rear part of the chassis was "transformed" ... open to huge interpretations. Need period photos, otherwise going nowhere slowly .
Pete
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Gee I wish you would do the research, or at least read Jim's PDF. The block ribbing between a F1 engine and a P4 are different. Jim's block has the P4 ribbing. Yes very, very similar but we have been down this path ~12 years ago.

I'll take a casting strengthening rib as proof over any number stamped anywhere thanks.
Pete
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wow those 917's are spectacular!!

 

You still don't get it do you, Pete as it's Jim who has actually been quoting the "Scheda Tecnica Technical Data Sheet" for 10 years which states that the rear part of the chassis was "transformed."

Please can we have period photographs of the chassis of 0846 in the scrapyard skip and of Tom Meade carrying it out?

 

Yes, of course I know about the block ribbing. However, the tipo numbers 218 and 242 which are 312 F1 on his engine block numbered 0003 have never been discussed before!!! If so please show me where and when. Ask Jim where the tipo 237 for P4 stamp is. How is he going to get out of this one?

 

0846 Daytona 67. Pic copyright JAG.
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I'm sure they have but also they mean nothing. I can go to any hardward store today and buy a number punch set and punch what ever I like on any engine I so choose. They have to be ignored because heck the engine number has even been made up to match the Piper chassis number.
Pete

 

Transformation can mean what has happened to Jim's chassis also because it was transformed to accept the Type 237 engine. It is only you that are saying that transformed means the whole rear chassis was remade. Lets agree to disagree here because without period photos we are not able to confirm what "transformed" means. So please drop your interpretation unless you find a photo.

That would be handy
Pete

 

That's the block in Jim's car. He doesn't have another block for it. Why would any other block be numbered 0003 by coincidence? Wake up and smell the coffee, Pete,

 

Unfortunately, while a great photo, we cannot see enough of the chassis.
Pete

 

Look up the word "transformation" in a dictionary.

 

It's not like Jim's chassis at the rear.

 

I didn't say another block was numbered 0003, I said that we do not know who put those numbers in Jim's block. I suspect Piper did at least add 0003. The chances of an old Ferrari engine happening to match Pipers self made chassis number is pretty unlikely don't you think?

Again it is very easy to remove old numbers and add new ones ... happens everyday all over the world. Hard to remove/modify casting ribs though (although not at all impossible).

We know that David Piper believed it was an F1 engine, with or without the numbers. It says so in the sales documents. Jim believed it was until the photo of the P4 engine out of a car was found and also a photo of a F1 engine was found. Those photos showed the different ribs (and distributer and central exhausts versus external difference, etc. ... not sure whether easily swapped??).

I believe it was also 3 litres when Jim bought it also as it had a F1 crank in it
Pete
ps: Maybe Ferrari who were strapped for cash in those days ran out of puka F1 blocks and so grabbed a P4 block and stamped it and ran it in their F1 car ... who knows?, but we DO know that it is not a puka F1 block/

 

Agreed. We have already discussed the removable tyre mount area.

And stop it with the BS dictionary cr@p with the meaning of transformed. You know it could mean anything, but you also could be right but you cannot use your interpretation of that word as proof alone.
Pete

 

Ferrari technical documents are not worded in English, which makes your insistence on interpreting this word to suit your case all the more irritating. We get what you think it should mean, but wishing hard doesn't make your interpretation the only correct one.

 

Jim's chassis has been adapted with bolt ons, not transformed. Transformed means that something has been changed into something completely different. It's a major change, not something minor. Jim's chassis has hardly been changed at all. Pull the bolt ons off which will take minutes and you're nearly back to solely P3 mountings.