The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Yet, the Factory drivers met him in Sicily, and cheered him on???

 

Wonderful, yet not conducive to identifying 0003 as the original 0846. Now if the Factory drivers had waved him on from the gates of Maranello after the chassis had been identified by the Factory as 0846, now that really would have been something!!!

 

This was the driver, of 0846.....sorry for any confusion in my post.

The Factory has supplied parts to his project.
Maybe for the money, but I don't think so.

 

That would be your orgasmic wet dream..(????)

He has a different one, apparently.

The world owes you nothing, in the way of "proof".
That' s normally a private conversation between Ferrari and the current owner.

You do know about that?

You should go buy a 308GT4, and start over here, participating in that Section.
Then, the Factory would talk to you TOO!
But, only about the 308GT4...

 

There is only proof that Ferrari North America sold P4 suspension PA to Wide World of Cars. No mention whatsoever of Jim Glickenhaus or the chassis number 0846. Case dismissed!
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Where do you suggest those parts ended up?

Holding a crab trap to the bottom of NYC's harbor???

You are tiring, very very very tiring.
But, maybe only to me...

Bye!!

 

I'm not the one trying to convince the world that the replica I bought is the 1967 Daytona winner. The thing is Bubba, what you don't get is that Jim does owe the world everything in the way of proof in his quest to identify his chassis as the original 0846. So far no conclusive proof has been offered.

I know nothing about a private conversation between Jim Glickenhaus and Ferrari. Do you? However, I do know about the following:

".....we would like to take this opportunity to kindly request that you use your best endeavors to have the press clearly indicate that this car has been fully rebuilt, and as such, is not the original F0846 which has been officially scrapped by Ferrari and not sold by the company in whole or in part."

But what did Jim do instead? He used his best endeavors to tell the world that his car is the original 0846.

 

There's a better chance an English chassis builder built the front 2/3 of the frame from P4 blueprints, and then switched to measuring 0854, inch by inch, to painstakingly replicate it's back half on the hybrid frame, only to waste all that effort and expense to modify it to take a P4 engine, thus turning it into a display model, then there is that you are the only one that finds him extremely tiring.

What do pages of discussing the motor have to do with what matters here?

 

Hahahaha

I'm sure he is frantically running to find his research jacket so he can heed your curiosity.

He couldn't care less. The car is in his garage. What the rest of the world thinks or knows doesn't matter one bit.

Get over yourself. I'm betting he thinks you're just some guy, whose jealousy, is in line with a betrayed high school school girl. What you think doesn't cross his mind or matter.

You have no idea what the frame is. You just care that it isn't. There's no car enthusiast in that perspective.

 

Thing is Vincent he does care more than anyone what the rest of the world thinks. Unfortunately, the research jacket he has worn so far has been a very cheap one. I got over myself long ago thank you.

 

You have zero idea what the car is. You have no research jacket. You have proven nothing.

Please explain the crash damage. That is in Jim's research. And it paints a much better picture then any of your 0003 theories.

 

May I ask if you are a relative of Jim's? Are you perhaps an employee? If not I suggest Jim employs you. Your devotion knows no bounds and I am genuinely moved by it. However, I wonder if you would write what you do if you had let the forum know your real name?

 

Yes. Jim owns a Mc Donalds in East Harlem and I am his fry cook.

Quit avoiding the question and do some research yourself. Like Jim had to.

Come up with some actual facts that prove your theory.

Good luck with your victory sport.

 

Jim's research has been very thorough hasn't it? May I refer you to just one of many examples of his thoroughness: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143077637-post8085.html

What have you got to say about that, Vincent?

 

More thorough then yours.

Please explain the accident damage and building off 0003 is what I have to say to that. With a legitimate answer, instead of theories and avoidance of a question, you obviously don't have any knowledge of to actually answer.

The transmission, is not what matters here. The chassis, you call a replica, does, but yet you have zero proof that it is.

Your auction details, in no way, the building of a chassis. Just the building of a car.

This time with proof. Like you expect Jim to do for you.

 

Is there any proof that 0003 has had an accident? I see what looks like a spanner or a tool mark on the LHS and there is said to be a replaced tube on one of the most vulnerable parts of a chassis that was 35 years old when Jim bought it. As I've said previously the tube could have been replaced for a number of reasons. Added to that Jim had it for around 2 years before he mentioned it. These things you mention may not have even occurred in DP's ownership. If someone mentioned damage on a car 2 years after you bought it they'd laugh at you.

 

I would call replaced tubing definite proof of damage. As I would bent tubing.

So you believe Jim is being fraudulent and faking this damage as findings?

Would this belief also include the Targa Florio Damage?

 

As far many are concerned, the car as it sits at the moment, should not be called "officially" 0846.

You could call it a representation, the most accurate reproduction containing almost all period ferrari components etc.But at this time, is should not in any way be referred to as original. It's not even close.

 

Let's be realistic. Most 35 year old racing cars would show more signs of damage than 0003.

I didn't say Jim has faked anything.

I have already made my views known on the TF 67 accident. I do not believe Wayne Sparling was the one who repaired any chassis damage that may have occurred there. If there was any chassis welding that needed to be done it would have been done back at the factory where there was access to jigs and Ferrari's own mechanics would have carried out the work, not a NART mechanic as WS was.
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Vincent, rather than come back with bile, fight back with key facts, it will strengthen your case far more than personal attacks, which you seem to do when you simply don't like the content of a new post.

Cast aside your views on the poster, attack the content of the post instead, with your own reply ammo.

Here is a question for you, Jims car is made up of many, many components, at least 20 of those are significant ones that I can think of, off the top of my head, can you name any which are directly linked to 0846 please, and why you think that?

Two of them will do for now.

Here is another, can you show us photos of any other car on the planet with the same indented scrutineering stamps as Jims which are proven to be linked to Le Mans, there must be well over 100 cars from that period still around that entered the 24 hrs.

Here in the UK if you rebuild a car, it has to have at least 70% content of the original example still in place in order for it to retain the original Identification for road registration purposes, what are the rules in The US?

 

I highly doubt that applies to vintage/classic automobiles...

 

As you noted the marks on the back of the block in this car are stampings. If they were casting numbers it would make a difference, but these numbers were stamped, which means that they apply to the configuration of the block post machining. What is very typical in cases like this are that the blocks for both the endurance cars and the F1 cars come from the same casting. When you machine details on the casting, things like tapping holes in bossess and finishing surfaces on the casting for accessories you would typically stamp numbers on the casting to indicate what configuration the block was machined to. As noted this block has stamped numbers that indicate that it was finished to be compatible with the 218 configuration and the 242 configuration. A 237 block could well be used in a 242 engine, or there could be additional features in the casting that might need to be machined to use it as a 242. We simply don't know, and unless you have both blocks sitting side by side you likely can't tell the difference.

All of these things would be shown in the engine parts list. There could well be additional features on the 242 block (since it is a later block) that were not there on the older 237 block to allow the accessories to be mounted differently. If the casting is the same and all the parts bolt up, the newer 242 block could be built as a 237 engine (as this one clearly is).

While this block was most certainly machined as a 242 there is nothing to keep it from being used in a 237 spec engine. That does not necessarily make it the "wrong" engine, since these two parts are essentially the same. As with the rest of the car it is built up as a race car from available parts. Engines were changed after each race, and engines were built up from available spares. No one has claimed that this block is anything but a block that has the right bore diameter and all of the P4 parts bolt onto it. There may well be some bosses or features on this block that allow it to be used as a 242 also, and those may not be used in this build. I don't have a problem if there are some features that are necessary for a 242 build that aren't used in a 237.

If the block had a different casting number (which we haven't seen) or was a totally different configuration because it was machined differently and the P4 heads and crank had to be adapted to fit that would be a different story, but that's clearly not the case here.

The stamped number 0003 is simply the third block that they made to that configuration. It well could have ended up as a spare block that was never built, and included in the large cashe of spares that was sold with the cars. Or it could well have been built and used as an F1 block, but it makes no difference since they are interchangeable. Since it wasn't going to be used as an F1 engine anymore (by that time the F1 engine had evolved further) and it fit the endurance cars it was included and sold off.

Bottom line is that this car has an engine that is "period correct" and is built to a P4 specification and it may well have some parts that were used in period. That is all it has claimed to be and that's all it is. To say this engine is not correct because the block is "totally different" than a P4 block is nonsense.

 

The debate remains highly educative and entertaining and thanks to everybody for the very engaged inputs. Stay open and keep posting! And yes, may be critical posts can destroy theories, but certainly not a good tread. This is a good tread and I especially enjoy the increasing level of the technical discussion.

However, I still feel that no relevant facts about the car’s identity can be found “in the metal” itself. Even if it could be proven that some chassis remains of #846 were “unknowingly” used in DP’s construction, this process had certainly not secretly “resurrected” Ferrari’s #0846. This chassis number had not only stopped to exist, no, Ferrari have even stated, that “eventual pieces” … “should not have been used to rebuild or to revival a car”. This is fact and “the metal” is hardly able to provide any other relevant conclusion.

Consequently, eventual remains of the car – if existing and used – would have become DP’s #0003 and that car will keep and continue this identity unseen of all later discoveries, theories, modifications etc. The relevant documents about this car’s identity are Piper’s Certificate of Origin and the US-import papers. All later produced US VIN or Italian Custom documents etc just reflect the applicant’s opinion and have no impact on the fact, that the car still is Piper’s #0003.

This is for sure a spectacular car built with wonderful Ferrari parts and the discussion about the used parts and the car’s history a highly interesting debate that should be continued here. But this car is Piper’s #0003 and certainly not Ferrari’s #0846. If a works car has been written off and remains scrapped from the manufacturer, this chassis number and identity had stopped to exist and simply is no more. And remember: It was the manufacturer and a works car! N’est-ce pas?

 

What does it matter if the parts ever ran in the car? The heads for instance are P4 heads scrutineering stamps or not. They are the right part and period correct whether used in 0846 or not. Instead pages are wasted argueing a point that has no relevency whatsoever to proving what matters, where the frame came from.

Can you prove that two parts on 0858, other then the chassis, were without a doubt on 0858 throughout it's life as a P4?

I will have more respect for Miura when he actually attempts to answer real questions that will actually lead somewhere versus wasting our time with pages of discussion that have nothing to do with the matter at hand, where this chassis came from.

We all know there is chassis damage. Where did it come from. It is an identifier that in my opinion, without a better explanation, points to the two accidents 0846 was in.

If Miura thinks Jim faked this, then I can accept that is his answer for how the damage came to be. But at least say he is a fraud.

I believe there are some people that think what Jim found is a replica chassis. I believe there are some people that think what Jim found is the remains of 0846. What I don't believe is that many people think that Jim has faked damage to sell the car as something it is not.
This is just a way for Miura to avoid answering an important question that he has no idea on and has never considered, the one question that would actually lead to a real answer.

Did Jim's research lead him to the wrong conclusion? Maybe. Is he faking stuff in the frame to counter-fit 0846? I highly doubt that.

If there is a possibility in his head, that Jim is not faking this damage, then how did the accident damage factually come to be?

If it happened under Pipers ownership, proving it did only leads to factual information that it is more likely to be 0003, but Miura has built his one sided argument never considering how a replica frame ended up with the characteristics that it has today. Just shoots down that it is not 0846.

These characteristics are the only proof there is. How it was built and the accident damage. The rest doesn't matter.

There is a very logical theory of how the frame would have been built by Ferrari as a Mule, as that is what is known to have happened, verified by history, and very logical pictures that point to how the damage was caused.

If he believes Jim to be a fraud then how did the frame get built this way and where is the proof that Piper did it?

If anyone here wants to know the truth of what this car is they should only be concerned with how the frame came to be. Cause that is the matter at hand.

Everything else is just mud slinging as he proves points not by fact but by opinion, he thinks everyone who said something is lying such as Sparling, he proves points by telling us what Foghieri is thinking, all the while shaming the car with no actual proof of anything.

is Jim's research as complete as could be? Maybe not. Is it 0846? Maybe not. But Jim's research is much more conclusive then zero proof of anything which is what Miura has offered up so far.

No matter what logical information is put out there he proves his facts by saying they are lies etc.

Which IMO is the worst bile one can sling.

BTW if you need your "70%" then very few race cars around today are the real deal. Parts were swapped around freely as has been explained MANY times before.

 

Good post except you ignore the fact that Jims argument (aka the 100 pages) is very incomplete, and lacks information that can be quite easily obtained.....why didnt he ask Piper these simply questions:

- did you have the chassis specially made new as P3/4 hybrid?
- did 003 have one or more accidents while in your possesion that explain the frame repairs?

while it may never be possible to prove to everyones satisfaction that its the real 0846 due to the scrapyard episode and subsequent gap in history, it may be still possible to prove that its indeed Piper 003 just as advertised and nothing else. Those 100 pages are quite worthless without a clear statement by Piper.