what is the future of V12?

I just read that Aston Martin don't want to resign from twenty cylinders engines and in the future they will use V12 with smaller capacity (currently six liters), do we can expect the same with Ferrari V12? (F50 have 4.7 liter) Do you have any ideas in which way evolution will go?

 

I didn't know aston made a twenty cylinder.

 

Meet the 211 liter V20 diesel EMD SD45 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Huh? I'm confused - what V20?

I think Ferrari will go V12 as long as they can for the GT's and Limited cars like the LaFezza and so on. It's a big part of what makes them special. They might go turbo on the V12 as to comply with emissions as most others have done.

 

The V12s will remain normally aspirated. Luca's orders!

 

My prediction:
V12 with some kind of electric system. Not now but in the car after F12.

The V12 will do just fine if its in cars with relatively limited production.

 

I think this is right though I am not certain about the timing of the electric system. Ferrari will probably meet its fleet emissions obligations with TT V8s which will make up most of production, allowing a small number of NA V12s to continue.

 

The turbos are not for emissions, or meeting standards, unless its CO2 output which is related to fuel consumption.. The turbos are essentialy for fuel economy. In fuel economy testing mostly the turbo is not on boost, so you can have a smaller displacement engine gets good fuel economy. Then when boost is called up you get the power of a larger motor and in some cases worse fuel consumption as a larger motor with the same power.

A V12 is a premium product as are ferraris and astons. Its part of the premium cachet too.

What we saw on la ferrari was the use of electrics to fill in torque down low so the V12 could be tuned to run at its most powerful and efficient range.

Basicaly a NA engine and int particular a V12 can be tuned to run very powerfully and efficiently, but at a fairly narrow high rev range. What you do then is use electrics to fill in the reulting torque deficit down low and make the thing driveable. If the batteries to drive this system are not too heavy its the best of all world, electric torque V12 Hp and sound.

But batteries and electric motors do weigh, and the system needs to have enough capacity to supplememt the 12 for multiple laps, which is very different to the power requirements for a normal car driven on the road, or a I8 BMW which can turn maybe 3 laps before the juice is gone..

Another solution being badied about is electric assist for a turbocharger, that way the turbo is instantly spooled up by an elctric motor with power response like a supercharger. You dont need too much lectric power for this as the turbo still largly relies on exhaust gasses. The gain is instant power like a NA or suercharged mnotor without the reultant parasitic drag of a supercharger.

VW also made some neat really small motor for euro polos that had superchargers for down low and turbos for up on high.

Bottom line is you can take a V12 downsize it to say a 4.5 liter and supplement with one of the above systems foir more overall power than a larger V12. The battery electric system has the advatage of an uncorrupted V12 sound which is part of the premium.

Turbos advantage is weight a big factor on performace cars and somethign that further adds to fuel economy. But then the F12 is no lightweight, and if the La ferrari si anything to go by its going to be electric torque assist at ferrari for the 12's.

 

V12's for Ferrari are like rear engine flat 6's are for Porsche, or desmo V twins for Ducati. They define the brand. So, I can't imagine Ferrari not having a V12 of some sort in their line up. In addition, Lamborghini is the same way with V12's, so I can't imagine Ferrari ceding the V12 market to them. But who knows? Bob Dylan reminds us that 'the times, they are a changin'.

 

I believe the same thing. V12 will never die..at least in Ferrari's cast of mind. But I am concerned about something else. Ι have read that the LaFerrari XX will have not a V12 N/A but a V6 Bi-Turbo. I don't know is this is true...but if it is...that would be IMHO very 'stupid'.

 

Ferrari will build V12 in the future but what will be size? now we have 6,3 liter Ferrari engine, Aston Martin have 6 liter and want smaller V12 in future

 

Luca won't be around forever.

 

yes CO2 emissions. Nevermind that it is useless. But this is what the whacky governments want.

 

And then there is Mercedes who insists on strapping on a twin turbo setup on a 6 or 6 1/2 liter v12


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We will see
I don't know if it could be a great deal with the technology to raise up the 458 to TT and meanwhile V12 engines remaining NA..
I'm not a big TT fun, but.. I don't know..


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It is widely expected that the 458 replacement will be TT, for better or for worse. There are always active threads over at that forum debating the pros and cons, including a poll showing that about 3/4 want to continue the NA engine. If the V8s go TT I will probably become a consistent V12 customer .... unless Ferrari pulls off a miracle and somehow captures the linearity, sound and instant response of the current engine in a TT.

 

According to BMW, a V12 is 4x cylinders too many.

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Lets hope so. I think the ''new F12'' will be carbon fiber instead of aluminium so weight can be further brought down, helping with fuel economy. More power is not needed...better power to weight ratio is always welcome. Fingers crossed.

IMO those are internet rumours. Remember that LaF mule a while back with the TT V6? 12 year olds get to excited, create some BS, gets picked up by mediocre websites and distributed as fact.

I think very few people outside Ferrari currently know what engine will be run. My money is on a V12.

 

Let's just hope it doesn't SEEM LIKE forever.

 

Since CO2 emissions are a direct reflection of consumption, one could argue that the end goal of downsizing is emissions reduction. The LaFerrari example you put forward was a very good one. A mighty powerful V12 for top end frenzy and electric torque low down the rev range for that mighty pull. The best of both worlds, as long as the weight penalty is not a big one and that the batteries can last lap after lap. It seems that Ferrari pulled that one of!

As for turbos, I am not convinced. They seem to have many drawbacks and a lightweight N/A engine could weigh the same or less as it won't have those heavy turbochargers, the long piping and the hefty intercoolers. They are good for lesser cars, but they don't belong in a million dollar hypercar IMO.

I reckon that normal production future Ferrari V12s will continue with the large 6.3 litre N/A engine and at some point they will also get a (probably cheaper) version of the LaFerrari's HY-KERS system. The V8 range will be turbocharged though; the California T already is!

 

That's rubbish! The LaFerrari XX will have the brutal V12. There are some LaFerrari mules with the 059/3 F1 engine but they are just test beds for the F1 programme.

 

He will be for the foreseeable future though. He just had his tenure renewed for another 3 years and I don't see a reason for him to step down any time soon.

 

Can't disagree with any of that.

Also immediately started to wonder when we see extreme lightweight engine blocks. Carbon block, inconel (??) cylinder linings (mostly for heat management) and all the usual lightweight stuff that's already common use.

It'll offset the weight disadvantage a V12 has over V8 turbo....

 

I say bring back the flat 12


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One thing that electric systems and turbochargers have in common is a major heat management problem.

For TT engines with high boost, heat soaking is common even with large, heavy intercoolers. The result is major loss of power even at moderate ambient temperatures. Every TT car I have owned has had this problem.

Electric systems that aim to provide large short duration torque gains suffer from large ohmic heating as the batteries are called on to discharge quickly. James Glickenhaus's experiences in the hybrid P4/5 Competizione in this regard may be instructive.

The message is that the drive to reduce emissions (increase efficiency) brings major debits for high performance car owners. (None of this will make a whit of difference in global temperature but that is another matter). As for me I feel that a good part of the large amount of $$$ I plunk down for a car such as a Ferrari is to get the repressiveness, linearity, and sound of the NA engine. Alas I do not call the shots.