Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

Please go back and find those post and when you cant. Im sure you'll make something up. You just need to let other opinions go. Calling people fanboys, like its a bad thing. Everyone on here is a fanboy of some make. Myself if I won the lottery I wouldn't purchase any of the 3.to me they arent worth the money, but Thats just my OPINION, so no need to go off on one of your full page rants about people posting nonsense. Im a fan of the Z06, my next purchase. The car that I think will redefine the supercar. I just enjoy all the top this top that. And I'll post something to stir it up when it gets stagnant. Some Peoples reactions are so predictable, its shocking when they don't bite..... I think I feel a bite!

Well, thats the end of MY half page rant.

 

+1
Get it after 2 minutes .... nice one. Ah ah

Luque

 

Possibly but I doubt it. If he knows anything at all about Formula 1, I would bet my last dollar that it involves one of the five biggest scandals ever in recent racing history, all involving Ferrari. None of us are proud of Ferrari behaving like this but hey, all's fair in love, war and racing. McLaren should learn from us to stretch the rules more!

Ferrari and Alonso Look Like the Clowns of F1 with Result Fixing Scandal
By Daniel Gooch, Analyst
Jul 26, 2010

Ferrari face getting suspended from Formula One after fixing yesterday's German Grand Prix result.
Motorsports' most famous team turned the sport of F1 into a circus, illegally telling Massa to let teammate Alonso pass.
Former F1 team chief Eddie Jordan said, "It was unlawful and it was theft. They stole from us the chance of having a wheel-to-wheel contest between the drivers.
"Ferrari should be ashamed. This was a team order. For me it is cheating and these two cars should be excluded. There is no upside to this."
The Italian team were fined just £65,000 (roughly what Alonso earns in a day on his £25 million-a-year salary) by race stewards, for using team orders, banned since 2002.
That's not the end of it though.
Ferrari have been hit with an even more serious charge of bringing the sport into disrepute. They have been ordered to appear in front of the World Motor Sport Council.
The WMSC has the power to kick a team out of the sport, the Championship, or change a result of a race.
F1 banned team orders eight years ago after an incident with Ferrari again where they told Rubens Barrichello to move over for Michael Schumacher in Austria.
Article 39.1 of F1 Sporting Regulations says, "Team orders which interfere with the race result are prohibited."
Many people in the sport are outraged with what happened including Former racer Anthony Davidson who said, "That was as blatant as it comes. We heard the message, the secret code. It's as clear as day."

What happened?
Massa moved from third to first on the grid at the first corner, as Vettel have an awful start.
The Red Bull driver tried to block the cars behind him, but lost out to both Ferraris.
With around 20 laps to go, Alonso was quicker than his Brazilian teammate, but couldn't get past him. He then came on the radio blasting, "This is ridiculous."
Massa then got a coded message on lap 47.
Ferrari race engineer Rob Smedley told Massa, "OK, so, Fernando is faster than you."
A lap later on lap 48, Smedley repeats the same message and then added, "Can you confirm you understood?"
Then, on lap 49, Massa showed he understood as he slowed down and pulled to the left, allowing Alonso to cruise into the lead.
Alonso finished first and Massa second. It was clear something was up on the podium. Alonso could have been happier being on top of the podium, but Massa looked gutted that he could have been there instead.


2010 Swapgate

Though team orders – the request for drivers to hold position or switch during a race – are legal today, they were outlawed between 2003 and 2010. The ban was put in place after Rubens Barrichello and Michael Schumacher swapped places on the final lap of the 2002 Austrian GP – even though Schumacher had won five of the first six races.
At the 2010 German GP, with Fernando Alonso 31 points ahead of his teammate Felipe Massa, Ferrari again came under fire for suspected team orders. With Massa and Alonso running one-two on lap 48, the Brazilian’s race engineer uttered the now-infamous line: “Fernando is faster than you.” The pair then switched, giving Alonso the win.
Massa’s response was flat when asked if he felt he wasn’t allowed to win the race. “No, the only thing I feel is that we’re working for the team and we’re doing a very good job, and that is the most important thing.” The team was fined $1,00,000 and subjected to a hearing by the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

2008 Crashgate

The inaugural Singapore Grand Prix was a smash-hit with fans, with Fernando Alonso taking an impressive strategic win – his first of the year – during a season that was dominated by Ferrari and McLaren. However, it would take the better part of a year for the details of this explosive race-fixing scandal to surface.
Alonso won the race due to a perfectly timed pit stop, completed just before the Safety Car came out on account of a crash by his teammate Nelson Piquet Jr on lap 14.
However, in September 2009, Piquet Jr admitted to the FIA that he was instructed to crash at turn 17 – where there were no crane trucks to remove the car quickly. Alonso, though, was purportedly not involved in the plan. The fix was allegedly masterminded by a small group within the team, including team principal Flavio Briatore and director of engineering Pat Symonds. Soon after, both left the team, receiving bans from FIA sanctioned events – Briatore for five years, Symonds for a lifetime (although this was later overturned).

2007 Spygate
The espionage controversy known as “Spygate” involved Ferrari technical manager Nigel Stepney and the gifting of his stolen confidential technical information to McLaren’s Mike Coughlan.
Ferrari suspended Stepney for lying, disgraceful morals and ethics since there was no concrete evidence to show that McLaren had benefited from the information. Stepney received a suspended jail sentence and the FIA advised against any team from employing him.

2006 Parkgate
Michael Schumacher had a ruthless reputation thanks to his controversial world title deciding clashes – first with Damon Hill at the 1994 Australian GP, and then again with Jacques Villeneuve at the 1997 European Grand Prix. However, things were about to get a whole lot worse – at the most glamorous event on the calendar: Monaco.
As the teams arrived in Monte Carlo, Schumacher trailed his rival, Renault’s Fernando Alonso by 15 points – and he was desperate to make up the gap. Alonso was fast all weekend and looked set to take pole position with his final lap in Q3, but the veteran German blocked his Spanish rival’s run by stopping his F2006 unexpectedly (“parking&#8221 at the exit of La Rascasse – the penultimate corner. Schumacher initially kept the pole, but eventually the stewards at the race deleted all of his times for blocking the circuit at the end of the session. “I tried to engage reverse but it didn’t engage, and I didn’t want to back up just by myself without knowing what was coming around the corner, and finally, it stalled,” was the world champion’s explanation.

 

and what does all that have to do with Martial Law in Thailand?

 

Porsche doesn't have the cachet of these other two for selling cars at a million dollars?

Mclaren had so much cachet the last time they tried they had to cut production numbers through lack of interest. Feel free to inform of any other million dollar Mclaren that went into production prior to the P1 that offsets that terrible and short record.

 

No, Jaguar knew their strategy in design, and their philosophy would not go well. Too much 'reliance' on E performance and a 4 cylinder engine just wouldn't work. Too tough of a sell.

 

Too bad, as that was an incredible engine, perfectly suited for electric supplementation at the low end.

 

You know I ignored that when I saw it. However, since you responded to it:

This is how you know certain people are Internet trolls, not real purchasers, and/or don't have the financial means (even if they weren't purchasers and/or just cheap/thrifty, spend or invest their $$ elsewhere), possess peer groups, intelligence, maturity or perspective to intelligently and publicly post about such things. Who says that!?

Idiot Journalist, pimple faced-hormone soaked teenagers, and Internet knuckleheads are your usual suspects.

When in reality, Porsche has building super cars for decades (908, 2.7 Rs, 911 Turbo, GT1, 959, Carrera GT, etc.). Even their 928 GT model, was one of the most expensive cars produced at the time (and the 550 Spyder of yonder was highly coveted). And we all know many of their production cars have been "modded" by various tuners (Ruf, etc.). Yes, we know Ruf is technically labeled a production company. Many of Porsche's race cars have been converted to street use (such as the 962 Dauer, etc.). And Porsche are raced regularly by individuals, both with and with out factory support.

Because of the above and other reasons, most high end purchasers-car guys, hold Ferrari and Porsche in the highest of esteem. They have a relationship with them. Many of these purchasers will flip flop or alternate purchasing both makes over the years (particularly GT2's, GT3's, Turbo's, and special 911's, along with the other cars mentioned vs the assorted Ferrari's) for similar and dissimilar reasons; though many times we like to pigeon hole both buyers. There's a long history there. Of course you have your "Ferrari" and "Porsche" people, sure. Nonetheless, many have purchased and highly respect both makes, even if they prefer one over the other. Internet forums? That's another matter, nonsense!

Now what cachet does McLaren have exactly?

They got a lucky shot with F1 (though that couldn't initially sell). They hooked up with Mercedes, followed by a messy public divorce. And has now produced 2, a few more cars. Yeah, what a history, cachet and track record indeed. Their cachet is built mainly off the F1 (the car). That's basically it! Great car I may add (as we all know). It's what brought them here, where they are now in the first place. One car. However, let's not discuss their "F1" track/race record. As you stated, maybe that's why they couldn't sell the 500 P1's (or F1's for that matter) and reduced it to 375. Of course this is a dirty family secret now (along with their recent F1 track exploits).

Not saying this to troll as others do. We applaud McLaren for it's efforts over the years. We need more smaller, specialty, independent car makes, such as years past. They're dwindling. So I'm rooting for them. Today's market and economies of scale don't always allow it. So good luck to them. However, that was just a dumb statement for people in the know, or of intelligence and/or a balanced perspective.

Hopefully, there won't be some some crazy, personal rebuttal? And instead (if there is one), it will be a simple acknowledgement of the faux pas, stated history and facts. Then we move on. SMH

 

I agree that it would've mated very well with the E system. But, no matter how hopeful they were, it became increasingly apparent to them that the number "4" just wouldn't sell (insane rpm's couldn't overcome cylinder perceptions and correlations). The competition had more exotic blends for their E-system and petrol combinations.

 

What I knew then: From the get go, Porsche was more than confident that the buyers were there...and that technology developed for 918 would be scalable down to future products. Even at 900k each, they knew enough from past CGT turnout and new market data that they would easily reach the company's 'minimum acceptable' number if not the entire 'planned' production run. This 'cachet' thing was never an issue that they felt they had to overcome in order to successfully negotiate perception and expectations to sell a $900k Porsche.

Per going back to the drawing board again and again to 'keep up' with the Joneses or fear of public perception that 918 isn't 'enough', that's just silly. What I gathered from my conversations with certain folks, and from other various sources, these past several years:

When 918 was greenlit, the biggest challenge then was systems integration. Particularly on the computer/software side of things. It still is. After the project had matured sufficiently, Porsche knew the performance targets in strict numbers would be reached as the individual pieces were known to be more than adequate, but getting three propulsion sources to work seamlessly and transparently remained the most difficult task. Getting to 60mph in 2.5 seconds wasn't what worried/ preoccupied the engineering team, it was the nuances, the drivability in stopping and going. Performance wise, there was plenty of leeway built into the original design plans so that if they had to lean more on E side of things instead of petrol (or vice versa) getting it and getting it to 'work' would not be an insurmountable problem (even if it meant sacrificing a small amount of something else). Of course Porsche was/is mindful of the other's flagship products and their capabilities, but at no time did they have to 'go back to the drawing boards' because they felt the car was inadequate. Even when the customer takes delivery of his/her car, it will still be in 'development' in one tiny way or another. Improvement will be constantly ongoing they say. The sluggish delivery of customer cars has to do with other things. Going faster (in a straight line, or at the 'Ring) and finding more dynamic efficiency has always been a natural part of development, but you simply can't go 'back' and find an extra 150hp if much of it wasn't already inbuilt! Hence the leeway, flexibility of original design plans. It was always going to be 'worthy' of the asking $900k simply because of the engineering wonder that is. They didn't have to go back to the drawing boards to make sure it wouldn't get dusted by the competition, they knew many moons ago when they began development that it would more than hold its own...both in outright performance and judged as a near 1mil car. Being 'surprised' by the product on offer by Porsche simply means you underestimated them, and/or overestimated what their competition would bring to the party. In the end though, the customers expect the car to deliver, and the car actually over-delivering isn't out of the question.

 

Insane RPM wouldn't be available. F1 engines of a similar layout barely touch 12k RPM and they only last for 200 miles. This car was just a shot in the sky, not a realistic proposition.

 

Very nicely stated.

Porsche usually under promises, and/or is conservative, then over delivers.

And you are correct. The systems integration of this vehicle, with three different propulsion systems, multiple transmissions, and a new, novel brake system would leave practically all other car makers stumped at the drawing boards (mind you their cash registers). Porsche should be highly commended for this. Once again, they're pushing the automobile and performance car forward. This seems to get lost with the wayward among us.

Lastly: I always find it ironic when some posters repeatedly say "Porsche went back when they saw what the competition was doing". This is despite the fact, that it was Stuttgart's competition that originally saw what Porsche was doing in the first place, and proceeded to enter the arena having Porsche [specs] as a baseline. That's rich (amongst other things).

It's almost if, they're upset for being duped into, and/or strongly wanting to believe in Porsche's initial specs (though common sense, a little knowledge, history and/or perspective would have stated other wise).

Go figure?

 

+1
And simply if they have read and important word used by Porsche in front of EVERY performance parameter - UNDER!!! Since the very beginning of the project...

 

I think it's hilarious when people say that PORSCHE needs cachet to build a supercar (hypercar, whateveryouwannacallitcar). It's funny as hell. Like they don't know what company they are really talking about.

Even funnier when they think McLaren for some reason, doesn't.

Porsche was building top of the line supercars when McLaren was still orange, kiwi, and humble.

 

Very True.

Giving them wiggle room to be UNDER, as is usually the custom with developmental projects at well run companies and entities.

 

Kinda makes you wonder what some folks are thinking, or their intentions when they post?

Are they actually aware of how they sound/come off??

Maybe a little self reflection, thought, or cursory research before posting would be good (or not posting hackneyed dribble at all)?

SMH like a wet dog.

To each his own.

Nuff said.

 

Have they ever sold a million dollar list price car before? Do any of their recent products regularly sell for a million dollars or more? The answer to both questions is flatly no. Values of their older products are beginning to appreciate - the first 959 to eclipse the million mark just occurred earlier this year - but a rising tide is lifting all boats in the collector car world. Is Porsche the first brand you think of when you think million dollar cars or is it barely on the list? The 918 Spyder is twice the list price of the Carrera GT - is it twice the car? Kind of doubt that...

They made just enough F1s that when an owner steps into his garage today he's looking at $10M. Pretty successful effort no matter how you try to slice it - they even made money on the project too which is probably more than we'll be able to say about Porsche with the 918 Spyder when they are done their many layers of redevelopment.

>8^)
ER

 

So a car Mclaren stop producing 16 years ago is a recent product is it?

Has Mclaren's one attempt benefited from the rising tide? Is Mclaren amongst the first brands when considering million dollar cars, considering they only made one? Is the P1 a better car than a MP4 12C by the same magnitude as their price difference? Kind of doubt that...

They made the number of F1's they could before interest in it dried up completely. What has happened since is remarkable, but its failure as a production car cannot be forgotten. You stating they had cachet is quite laughable considering.

You cannot make a dismissive comment about Porsche's ongoing development of their 918 when Mclaren have done the same with the MP4-12C and will likely do the same with the P1.

Your cachet comment was silly and inaccurate, your illogical comment regarding Porsche development even more so.

You must try harder Erik.

 

The F1 is a product of the modern era, absolutely. I'm sure there are Porsche's from the 50's and 60's that trade for 7-figures but moving beyond the early '70's 2.7RS you'll find very little where that is even remotely the case.

In the rising tide, the F1 is the lighthouse.

>8^)
ER

 

1998 isn't the modern era Erik.

You really are reaching now.

 

Now we're back on track with manly discussions . No more group hugs for now.

 

I do wonder if Porsche made less than 70 road going Carrera GT's, where their prices would be in today's market.

Through Mclaren's production car failure with the F1 and scaling back of production numbers as a result, came later market success. Perhaps Porsche should of wished failure on the Carrera GT instead of successfully building and selling over 1000 of them?

 

"While a production run of 1,500 Carrera GTs had been planned, only about 1,270 were built."

Seems to meet your criteria for "failures" just perfectly.

TMYK

>8^)
ER

 

Planned 500 P1's...built just 375! Another match for the failure criteria Erik.

Mclaren couldn't shift 100 road going F1's when built, nevermind 1000+. If they did your theoretical individual stood in a garage looking at a $10m Mclaren F1, would likely be looking at a car worth much less. The car benefits now from being a sales disaster when new.

Some cachet.

 

Again, fun to think where Carrera GT prices would be if only 64 road going examples were built.