The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The disappointing thing is we appear to have lost Napolis as a poster. Can't blame him but pity as his cars are very interesting.

Pete

 

Agree! The ban is ridiculous. The guy asked many good questions which were never answered properly, and did a lot of research. So, for debating he's banned from a debate thread?
Nathan

 

Steve will one day admit he was trolling.

Many of his questions were answered in the old thread. Yes some of his questions were good, but guess what we all knew that already. Asking the same things over and over and over and over and over again does not produce answers. Instead what Steve should have done is his own research and when he had an answer that disproved Jim or otherwise share it.

The result of Steve's trolling is that FerrariChat has (presently) lost a member that had significantly more interesting cars than any other member and he liked to share them with us. Well done!
Pete

 

Right here is the truth. I am glad his trolling has been stopped but its unfortunate it wasn't stopped sooner.

 

I always found it interesting that when Toxic Avenger miurasv was online sharing "research", so was a certain researcher.


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This entire episode is yet another example of members who actually contribute to this forum decide the grief from posers and trolls is not worth the effort. In the end the community that has made this website a great resource continues to diminish.

 

You should read some of your own post in this thread ... I disagreed with some of his approach, but your last post to him, regardless of a small attempt to try and be funny was incite flaming. And there were many times you did that. People with glass houses .... You know.
Seems freedom of speech is now becoming ban able.
Miurasv should have not be on a permanent ban.

 

A ban is always the least good resolution.

Steve made a few interesting observations but his motives were corrosive. The mods were in a tough spot in that while the effect was apparent, for the most part, he stayed within the rules.
In the end he did rather more harm than good and should have been shut off earlier. Banning people for implied motivations is a slippery slope but in this case would have been justified long ago.

 

Its a shame this wasn't done until after months of obvious trolling, more of a timely response would have prevented the site from losing a member who brought MANY views and members here. Hopefully there is some reaching out to rebuild that relationship.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

Sure.

There was a lot that came out of it that wasn't pretty. In the end I guess it is easier to fight fire with fire.

As far as my last post to him, I don't see anything wrong with it, It was a joke and I stated as such in the post.

I don't feel there was any debate going on with Miura. He had his motive and only based truths on that motive.

People gave him legitimate answers which he would discount. He wasn't looking for debate or truths, he was looking for vengeance and it is quite clear that's what he was doing. He would shoot down every expert and any piece of decent information out there without offering up any counter of why the former wasn't true and this is how it actually happened.

Notice how the thread died the day he stopped posting. As much as I enjoy learning about this car, I'd rather learn about the actual history of it. If that's not taking place it's better that the thread is dead.

He would not answers questions or follow in the debate, unless it helped him pursue his revenge. That is not debate. He was on the attack, there was no debate in sight.

I agree with the sad loss being Napolis. His threads were great. Here was a guy who gave enthusiast write ups on some of the coolest cars ever made.

 

Old story. Bad money drives out good.

 

Steve asked some very valid questions that never got answered, added much debate and alternative evidence about the greyer areas of the claims made about the car which had never been backed up with concrete proof, just conjecture and a lot of 2+2, so it must be true support from the fan club.

Yes he was like a dog with a bone at times, but I believe for proper reason, in no way a troll which itself is a awful derogatory term anyway just used to put people down.

Face does not fit, ask awkward questions, get banned clearly appears to be the order of the day, very poor show.

 

Self inflicted by those who regularly made disparaging comments about his efforts and achievements from a position clearly of ignorance and misguided opinions.I have disagreed with Jim on certain basic issues particularly regarding 0858.However this in no way detracts from my respect and admiration for what Jim has done in researching and restoring the cars in his care.tongascrew

 

Agreed and well said.

 

Are you kidding me?

He (miurasv) hasn't posted anything in this thread for a month and you NOW call it his most damning activity and he must be banned?

That is going to be a difficult metric to apply fairly across the board...reinforcing stereotypes and perceptions that some have towards the participants in these "discussions" ...often the same people who claim that "full disclosure" and "truth" are the best thing we can leave future generations...the same people who attack others for creating history in the present in such a way that it becomes fact in the future.

Folks, if some of these uncomfortable questions are not asked, they will never get answered. The result will be some status quo that becomes fact...bad assumptions become truths.

For example: the "fact" that is presented that I can't wrap my head around is the wheelbase. It is very prominently presented as a big reason why the equation adds up to 0846...the relocated engine changed the wheelbase. IMPOSSIBLE. The engine could be installed in the passenger seat and the wheelbase will not have changed...proven by the multiple restoration photos of multiple P cars rolling around on FOUR WHEELS and no engine. IOW, wheelbase does not automatically change because the engine was moved.

Sure, Miurasv got defensive at times; but when the expectation is that he must produce proof that it happened some other way...when he's simply raising questions and pointing out that there isn't very much proof that it happened the way the 0846 papers claim...it becomes ridiculous.

Stop and think about who really carries the onus of proof. That person took it upon himself to produce and present the proof (it was not done at somebody else's request, etc.). That proof has been scrutinized and there are many questions about that proof that have not been answered.

This is not how most of you treat other owners when claims are made. Typically, F-chat holds people making claims to a higher standard than this.

 

I want to say one thing, about all of his "innocently posed questions and requests for documentation".....

IF he really was interested in the truth, he was far closer to a fireside chat with Mr. Piper than most of us.

What was extremely tiresome to me, was his Ivory Tower requests (repeatedly and repeatedly and repeatedly and then again, after that) that some one ELSE dig a scepter from their pocket and anoint the car in question ( and maybe the other three #0900s too!)with a Factory Gold Seal of Approval, with a fingerprint from Enzo's ghost, on the upper left hand corner.

We all know that the ancient racing history of an Ferrari does not work that way, as they were busy fooling Customs as well as Race Inspectors at every turn.

He was armchair quarterbacking, and it seemed very lazy, to me...not proactive at all.

I think he did himself more harm in our community than he ever inflicted on his intended target.

Therefore and in closing, I agree with Beaker's "Harassment" charge.....

 

Interesting that he isn't even one of the many (7) mods for this specific section.


The biggest problem that I had was how the questions were posed, and how many times certain questions were repetitively asked that could have been answered by reading the file on the car... That is just trolling.

 

But...one person's file of facts is another person's collection of misleading information. I came to the conclusion awhile ago that miurasv has read quite thoroughly the 0846 papers. I also came to the conclusion that many other contributors have not.

 

I don't blame Jim a bit for bailing. He was asked over and over ad naseum, covering the same ground. It became tiresome even for the casual observer.

Regardless of your perspective, he had enough so I really don't blame him although it will suck not knowing what his racing/collecting plans are for the present and future. I'll miss that.

 

That is unquestionably the funniest thing I have read since Patrick McManus.


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My understanding of Napolis's exit was that he said that it was a leave of absence only, due to other demands on his time.

I enjoyed his contributions and I enjoyed miurasv's as well. Both had their pluses and minuses. Napolis tended not to furnish complete information and responses to inquiries, and to ascribe meanings to the facts that sometimes went too far. For example, when Ferrari S.p.A., or the New York DMV, or some foreign nation's customs agency, take certain actions that are consistent with a finding that the frame in Napolis's car is the original 0846 frame, these were actions were not performed in response to a specific submission of that issue to them, for their investigation and for the rejection of other possible explanations. Rather, each such agency or tribunal, if you will, had its own purposes, motives, and procedures.

Likewise, miurasv's approach was rarely framed as a search for the answer to this issue. Rather, he sought responses from others primarily in order to find fault with the response. This is not the same thing as trying to reveal the ultimate facts.

It is not unexpected that the collision of these two approaches would result in a lot more heat than light. The thing to remember is that we're all members of the same team: the car lovers of the world.

 

I think you also have to read between the lines of some of Steves questions, the details had depth beyond that which he could have probably found out alone, i think at times he was fed information that he then ended up fronting on behalf of others who did not want to be seen to be on the frontline of the questioning with regards this particular car, but it was Steve that then ended up fielding the flack from the blinkered fan club.

Many many unanswered questions still to be resolved about this example, closing out one of the people who expressed doubts online wont prevent the same doubts still being very much in evidence in the wider world.

 

Then maybe those people need to not masquerade behind Steve, but get out in the open and make their intentions known.

I believe part of the concern was people believed Steve was acting as a schill for other people versus expressing his true opinion.

I do believe Steve raised some good questions, but it was what they were clothed in that made it trolling IMO.