The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

What steve did was to poison what might have been the best place to have an honest and open discussion.

 

Not going to happen though is it, with Steve out of the loop this thread will wither and die, probably the key reason for his ban.

I have to ask, but El Wayne was controlling this thread very fairly and evenly with his moderation, why have other mods sought to intervene and over rule him and you Rob?

 

+1 100%

 

What is all that? Who are "those people" and what is "masquerade"? Please explain.

 

Perhaps a good start would be you doing that.

 

"That" is in response to this...

 

There are legitimate points of concern with 0846 that do remain with some very knowledgeable people. Shouting louder and not seriously addressing these issues does not negate them.

Why does the IAC/PFA continue to not accept this car for judging at any event they control? Cavallino, Pebble Beach and the FCA International Meet are all IAC/PFA judged events.

Why does Jess Pourret refuse to accept 0846? Few have the credentials to challenge his conclusions nor do they have the access to all the factory files that he does.

Do keep in mind that when Jim bought the car from David Piper he was buying, and expected, a David Piper commissioned frame and an amalgamation of old spare parts. It was at a later point when Jim and his people discovered that what it really was may have been greater. I do commend Jim for his research, detailed documentation and the easy availability of his document for everyone to review.

Jeff

 

Exactly

This thread has been fascinating. No matter which side you take, at least Steve was courageous enough to reveal his identity and that needs to be respected. He copped endless abuse from not so courageous sycophants

 

I have read this thread from time to time but never participated. One thing that confuses me is why Jim wound up with this car and seems to have such a hard on for Piper. Piper gave him a gold mine. If it was me I'd think Piper was cooler than sliced bread.

 

Yup..not sure what the story is here. But it does seem a bit odd. I really wish David would speak out about this car. It would put a lot of issues to rest.

 

Rob, can't see that happening <circumventing censor system>

I personally would have liked Steve to stop asking the same questions and go look for photos and I wish the mods had requested this as in ~1000 more posts we gained nothing that we had not discussed 10 years ago, and we have lost Jim.

Pete

 

I've had quite some experience ( in another Forum) with a particular individual that was lucky enough to have "unskipped" quite a goldmine of information on certain motorcars (not Ferraris) based in the UK. He then proceeded over the years offering advice and info in a way that sometimes offended others or contravened what the manufacturer involved actually said to owners of these particular cars. I remember that the line between being helpful and being an annoyance was very thin, not to mention that "his" paperwork was not always indicative of the final actions of the manufacturer.

There were two reasons for that; firstly, the manufacturer involved (like Ferrari in the distant past) did not have all practices checked and secured and, secondly, human nature being what it is, his handling of the matter was arrogant.

I've seen some of these elements in this thread. They confirm to me (if confirmation was ever necessary) that there are no absolutes in all of this. I am also of the opinion that there are certain individuals whose longterm presence alone occasionally outweighs objective information and I sense that Napolis knows that very well as he has taken a very educated look prior to deciding what to do publicly with 0846.

That alone proves his true commitment to being historically correct; I hope that all of us (inc. Ferrari) learn from this.

 

I Agree with Neuro. He had a specific agenda and it was extremely distracting and argumentative.

 

No "response" at all ...

 

If that's how you see it.

 

Steve only asked the same questions over and over, as no detailed, or supported answers were ever given other than those grey ones within the pdf, and his questions would then be lost in the mists of time behind the rest of the drivel on this thread, hence he would then repeat them at times.

In a way the debate became two broad, people like Vincent (whoever he may be in the real world ?) and even myself and you could only offer broad assumptions, none of us had any facts at hand. Maybe it should have been kept to a debate between Jim and a list of invited participants, all well known for unearthing the real facts in relation to Ferrari.

Also you dont have to be either Fchat or Flife, I and probably everyone else flits between the two regardless.

 

Whoever you may be in the real world....

Unless that is, that Paul500 is your real name? Maybe you're Andre3000's cousin? Who knows.

If you request facts. You need to ask questions so the group can find answers.

The one question, I repeatedly asked and got no answers for, that IMO would factually answer the whole question, is how was this frame made?

If Piper built it, there is no reason to wonder if it was built by Ferrari, as there must be a history of why he built a car this way and how. If my premise was this car was not built by Ferrari, I think my proof would lie in that, the car was not built by Ferrari but by someone else. Nothing Miura argued has shown in anyway that the frame was not built at Ferrari. It was only attacks that Jim's research might be wrong. I don't think that helps. I think that you have to know that not every bit of any historical research is 100% spot on. It is time for you to do your own research that proves your point, the frame was not built by Ferrari but by Piper.

Sitting around and attacking a website or any facts that someone else has painstakingly gathered wont disprove or prove anything, it becomes a political discussion that never comes to facts and runs in circles.

Being able to prove how a car came to be is all the facts you need.

I asked him questions on the website that continually went unanswered. Such as could 0858 be registered on it as a P4? Could Pipers 0900 be registered on it as a Ferrari? Could Miura register a car he doesn't own on it? No response....?

Miura would argue points even when others would clearly point out why they made sense. Then he would just say there's no way they could be true, no matter if they made sense or not, and then he would assign facts that had no bearing in the truth, such as this is not the real chassis cause Foghieri wouldn't build it this way. Even though it was just clearly explained why a under funded race team would build a chassis exactly this way.

He gave no more facts then anyone else, nor did he cover or uncover anything that hasn't been rehashed 1000 times before.

If you think Miura's questions were leading somewhere you are misguided.

Sure he posed some decent questions. But he drug you into way more rat holes.

 

Vincent, you added nothing to the debate, just constantly re iterated Jims beliefs as being cast iron facts, and all just because Jim said so, at least Steve did research the matter and added factual alternatives based on previous documentation he had managed to find.

If you dispute this then point us in the direction of any reply you made where you added any fresh information to the cause please.

 

And you did?

Miura added no facts. And I feel, as do many others, that he did minimal research. Seems like he just re-iterated other peoples research and opinions.

I did not rest on Jim's facts. I rarely brought them up. To me, why I believe this frame is the real deal is the logic in it's engineering. There was a reason this chassis was built this way. What I added is trying to ask questions that would lead to real answers which no one has or was able to come up with.

But my opinion is somewhat formed on Jim's facts, as he is the guy who has done real research and I feel for the most part that it is good research. Some of it may be wrong, but I don't feel that's because he is not being as forthright as could be. If there are some flaws in it, it is due to it being historical research and no expert ever gets that 100% correct. None of them. But to sit there with your concentration being on knocking it down is not debate, or leading anywhere. It is trolling.

Sure there may be some 2+2 and what not. He was just a guy that thought his car was a replica. When he found some evidence, that pointed to it may be more then a replica, it seems like he had the task of putting together the pieces that were known the best that he could. I don't feel he is making stuff up. I feel his disclosure on J6 shows the cloth that the man is made of.

Like it has been said a thousand times before, nothing new has been added to this thread in a long time, including "Miura's" questions and he certainly added no sort of facts.

Proving Jim's research wrong really gets us nowhere. All of it can be wrong and it doesn't prove that this frame wasn't built by Ferrari.

If it was built by someone other then the original chassis builder I feel the experts would have already been able to point out clear and present differences and discount it as real, quickly, just like they could with a Norwood. I also have not heard a decent story of why Piper would have went through the trouble of building it this way. It makes sense why Ferrari did. Makes no sense why Piper did. I don't Need Jim's research to believe this is 0846, I just need to know Ferrari's history with the car.

For me to think it is not 0846 I would need to know Pipers history with the car that makes it not so.

If Piper built the car, and we know it existed with him during those years, then where are the facts of how it came to be this way?

To me figuring out how the car was actually built and why is the greatest use of this thread, but maybe I'm just an idiot and that is just crazy to think that matters at all.

 

All the more so in the digital world and its associated problems. My experience (from another make) is that it is exceptionally difficult for well-meaning collectors and restorers to prove their point in a digital medium.

No connection to JG, etc, etc.

 

I respect both you guys but it's this sort of thing that derails threads and alienates posters.

 

Agreed.

I think the discussion should be restricted to how the car came to be.

 

I refer you to the statement I made above yours when quoting PSK, I clearly said I, he and you could only make assumptions as we had no facts to hand.

How many posts have you made on this thread compared to me? considerably more, and yes I did actually add some info regarding the person who did the conversion work for Piper.

No one needs to prove the car is a Piper thats a fact under no dispute, Jim bought it as a Piper and it was sold as a Piper, and it was auctioned prior to the sale to Jim as a Piper.

If anyone should be labelled as a troll then just count up your posts on this thread and then list how many of those actually added anything to the debate.

Then do the same with Steves.

You should be far from sitting on your perch crowing now that Steve is unable to defend himself.

 

Totally agree but this thread is dead in the water anyway now that the debate has been stifled