Ferrari LaFerrari vs Mclaren P1 vs Porsche 918

It was your selective reading that led us down the rabbit hole of "Classics" and "Racing Cars" - totally unrelated to the point that had been made.

False - the F1 was a road car and a clean-sheet design that eventually, based on the desires of a select group of customers, was developed into a racing car and ending up being one that was extremely successful.

Try being a student of history before attempting to masquerade as a professor of it.

>8^)
ER

 

Eric, seemingly there are many who type first, maybe even think later on this thread.

 

I disagree. I have a CGT and only now is it getting to the original retail price when new. The market has the final word. Perhaps it will increase in price over the next 10 years. But probably less than the stock market.

 

Porsche sold 1100 Carrera GT's at $448,000. And it was lauded by the press at the time, as an instant classic (which is what I was discussing).

However, 1100 Carrera GT's on the market wasn't going to change it's resale for you or anyone else.

I know it's been a long going argument here. However, you can't always quantify a particular cars desirability with it's resale value. Sometimes (not all) they're co-mitigating factors.

 

So the 550S road car and other Porsche's that had sold for $1 mil didn't count (or maybe you missed that)?

I know. You created your own criteria, right (the million dollar road car club playground, starting after the F1?

The point is: It doesn't matter. It's a gerrymandered criteria created by you to fit a specific niche. No one looks at it like that. However, it's like talking to a wall.

F1's proper lineage/creation aside; it won't change the reality of your silly gerrymandered, faux argument, and McLaren's lack of iconic road car history and "cachet" outside of the F1 (particularly vs Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Jaguar, Aston, Buggatti, etc.). Nobody cares or looks at it that way.

 

For the third time - NO!

There are plenty of classic Alfa Romeo's that have sold for many millions of dollars but they are not a brand with the cachet to offer a million dollar car to the public in the modern era. Ford GT40s can command multiple million dollar price tags but they're not a brand with the cachet to build a million dollar road car today either. Toyota 2000 GTs are million dollar cars now but even you would laugh out loud at the idea of a million dollar Toyota - admit it! This "evidence" you wasted all that time compiling is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Sorry that a simple application of logical criteria is proving too complicated for you to decompress and wrap your head around.

For people like you who have NOT been paying attention, those brands who have successfully sold million dollar road cars in the modern era are Aston Martin, Bugatti, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati and McLaren. And yes, McLaren were the first to do so with any kind of volume and people thought they were a bit mad for doing so at the time. There are also the boutique brands (Pagani, Koenigsegg, etc) but they are rather a sideshow in comparison.

The 918 is Porsche's first attempt at approaching the million dollar mark and they've been too ambitious with their production target (not learning their lesson from the Carrera GT) and have struggled to find buyers. It's not a knock on the car - the car is, after several rounds of revisions, apparently a worthy competitor to offerings from McLaren and Ferrari, but it would still seem that people are struggling with putting pen to paper and writing the check for a Porsche at a million bucks out the door.

>8^)
ER

 

Ok, ok every body!
But what about M46J and not M60 or multiaxial?
LaFerrari is going to break and nobody care?? WTF??

 

it's not going to break. M46J is has great tensile strength and is very high modulus. It is still a very big step up from the already great industry standard M40 fabric with standard resin. Of course M60J is superior but the increase in cost reflects that. Ferrari engineers would of course redo it with higher technical performance fabric, but that goes for engineers at other brands as well...

 

He lost me at the F1 was based off of a racecar too. Do cars become instant Classics? Or are they instant great cars and future Classic cars. Isnt a Classic based on what people think of something further along in time. An instant Classic is just speculation or do cars bypass that period. Just because testers say its a classic doesn't mean squat. After a certain age everything becomes classic.

 

It's funny how selling roughly twice the P1's sold is considered 'struggling'. The production target merely reflects the need to recoup the greater development cost for 918. However, falling 100-150 cars short of 'Public' target will still be fine for them (they are right about at min acceptable target, 700 cars is very much a success given the type of product that 918 is). The ultimate recovery of development cost + profits will happen when the technology is steadily trickled down later on.

btw, what's your definition for "modern era"? within last 15 years? 20-25? 30+? or is it simply only as far back as Mac F1? to me, the F1 is just outside of 'modern'. Being from quite some time ago, it's a classic to me.

 

why a need for P1 "Track"? Isn't it already track all-conquering with no equals setting of sub 3 inch ride height, mega stiff dampers, and 1300lb downforce? or are they actually being realistic now (Autocar video review test where Sutts is bouncing around like a bobble-head figure..saying car would probably be faster in 'Sport' mode...ouch). Perhaps a more compliant setup along with the long awaited Trofeo R's for the car.

 

Finally some body who speak my language! Thank you!!
Normally this forum feel to me like I am reading a fairytale book wrote by fairies. And also angry ogre monsters.
M46J is the problem. It is not good enough and also not M60J is. Both are cracking and have too few tensile strength under low compression like in bumpy road turning condition! Both have failure at peak stress because they do not become longer easy, in other word they do not achieve a good boner like condition. 60msi is NOT enough modulus! Any way, M55J will replace M60J in the market.
If Ferrari is intelligent, I believe they must use only T700G from beginning. Is big mistake they try to save money at beginning. Now they see it and realise M46J composite property does not cut mustard but is too late! WTF?!

 

Eh? You feel good? Why you no want them for to reduce P1 weight, increase power, increase ground effect, more strong breaks, more sensitive steering, illegal road exhaust, crazy light wheels, no glass material, slick tires, etcetera? You expect arm rest, cup holder, air-condition and radio also? WTF?!

 

you are right that tensile performance under compression is very very important. Ferrari clearly thought the choice of fabrics and their associated Resin would be more than adequate, and easily superior to baseline standard of Enzo chassis. They wanted to use 'high end' fabrics, but they also had to keep cost within reason. Using only Toray's top of the line T' series fabric would've been too cost intensive perhaps? If the chassis is cracking at sections using M46J, then they MUST re-engineer it with the technically superior fabric. Or are they saying that cracking will only occur under unrealistic abuse? So they won't need to 'fix' it because it would be massively expensive for them?

 

of course I would want the 'improved' car (in several of my old posts, I already mentioned my fantasy P1 was already upgraded with higher performance components, therefore making it an even more devastating performance machine. I'm just saying that if they are feeling a need for an even more focused 'track package', then they are admitting that the first 'race' setup they came out with wasn't quite what they had hoped it would be...and that being 'untouchable'.

 

Finally now I am speaking with somebody intelligent, my new engineer friend Dave! La mia casa è la tua casa!
Well, is disputable what means unrealistic abuse. Most LaFerrari driver will not go into bumpy corner fast. But if happens…BANG!

 

I hope no one ever has a chassis failure like that...it would be devastating! however, if they knew there would be even a tiny chance that M46J would not have sufficient tensile strength when under compression (due to unique overall design and technical challenge of LaFerrari), they should've replaced it with high end T' series. As you said, Ferrari used analysis and modeling that was possible to them, but sometimes only AFTER you build a complete machine do you fully see the 100% stress data.

 

The F1 opened the show with the first modern car priced at ~$1M. I certainly consider cars from the 1990's to be modern still. We've seen a massive amount of changes since then due to increased regulations and safety requirements, but cars have been around for ~125 years so calling the ones built in the last quarter century modern doesn't seem like any kind of stretch for me.

I also find it pretty silly that in many states you can apply for "Antique" registration when your car reaches the 25-year mark. To me, an actual antique car is turn-of-the-century stuff.

>8^)
ER

 

Trofeo R's are now available for the P1.

They're more than happy with the P1 and the P1 Track will not be road legal. It will be an absolute monster with DTM-like aero, less weight, ~1000 bhp and on slicks.

 

ah, so they're basically doing a version very much like the one that has been in my fantasy garage for the past year or so...a completely tricked out monster! the LaF and 918 in the same fantasy garage are both monsters too...heavily modified.

 

Experienced trofeo r at spa in friends 12c
Fantastic tyre

Makes it nearly as fast as a Carrera gt round there

 

What's the brand on this over million dollars car again?

http://www.touringsuperleggera.eu/en/products8.php

 

Geesh/SMH

Once again, you're twisting your logic and arguments to suit you.

Here's what you miss, why this is a selective gerrymandered argument:

First of all, who cares about a $1 million car? That's largely a reflection of inflation (and a recent phenomena) and/or production targets. Historically, Porsche has sold one of the most expensive vehicles available since the 60's to present. That's history you can't erase. This is why the $1mil figure is so selective and arbitrary (not including how Porsche's strategic pricing of it's GT cars, and why). Ironically, if the F1 didn't exist, you probably wouldn't even be discussing $1 million vehicles to begin with. It's a fanboy argument. What does this have to do with the P1's performance, drive ability and reliability? What does it have to do with McLaren as a future manufacturer, viable, long term business model? It's all a distraction to forget about the P1's badly missing it's acceleration targets in Autocar (and other innuendo, murmurs) for all we know? SMH

I brought up other various classic cars, to illustrate McLaren doesn't have a successful road car lineage outside of the F1 (no matter how hard/much you create this artificial $1 mil threshold and "cachet" for McLaren). The fact that it includes Fords and Alfa Romeos, should be all the more sobering to you. That was the point. Equally as important (and what you miss again): Alfa, Ford, Jaguar, etc., quite frankly haven't consistently produced sports cars at the highest, iconic levels to maintain said cache. Conversely, Porsche's been at the forefront of Sports car manufacturing and development (with their Super Cars--550S, 908, 2.7 RS, 911 Turbo, Slant Nose, 959, GT1's, Carrera GT; GT2-3's, Special Editions, Racing Programs, Porsche Driving School, etc.) for the past six decades. That's the difference. Come on, you can do better than that!?

The reason you can't separate all those Porsche race, and classic car sales (as you like to do): It's that very history and lineage why Porsche sells so many GT3, GT2's, Carrera GT's, GT3 RS's, special editions, etc., to begin with. This is not Mercedes, where 95% of the SL buyers have no credible knowledge of Mercedes racing past, and don't consider the SL a true sports car. Porsche racing past, has directly influenced it's road model and economic success (from both Porsche and buyers). It's something you can't really say about McLaren in comparison. McLaren could barely be considered a road car company/manufacturer for most of it's existence. Now because Porsche CAN and chooses to sell as many of those cars as possible (instead of inflating the value of the secondary market) is not a bad thing. It's actually great for them. Porsche is a manufacturer and engineering company. They take the profits and place it back into their vehicles, usually creating new innovations in the process. McLaren doesn't even build it's own engines on the "technological" P1 for Christ Sakes.

As a McLaren Lover, I would spend less time on the F1 secondary market (and Porsche fixation), and more time on McLaren's actual sales and future viability. McLaren would be ecstatic if they had Porsche's manufacturing, sales and marketing success (and so would you, if you knew better). As a matter of fact, they would kill for it. When McLaren needs seed money to expand and fancies investor's, they're going to request, demand cost, profit per unit, overall volume, market potential, growth, etc., from them; not what the F1 sold on the secondary market where McLaren didn't directly profit. It's a bottom line business. And the jury is still out on McLaren's future.

It's been said over and over again ad nauseum. Porsche has a different financial model and goals than McLaren, and plays on an entirely differently level manufacturing wise (even excluding Panamera's, Macan's and Cayenne's). And for you to criticize the Carrera GT for selling 1100 vehicles at $448,000 a pop 10 years ago, shows your naivety, insincerity, and/or twisted business acumen for the CGT and Porsche's success with it. You realize that's more $ales revenue for the CGT--10 years ago--than McLaren garnered for their 375 P1's today (and YES, we know they wanted to sell more, 500 of them)?...That should put it into perspective for you.

Kinda reminds me of the GTR and it's most ardent fans. They are one of loudest groups on the internet (along with McLaren of course). However, the GTR only sells 700-1500+ cars a year world wide, and declining, since Ghosn's 2.0 relaunch. That's nothing, and significantly less than both Ferrari and Porsche (probably Lamborghini as well), though the GTR sells for much less than those other vehicles. For all intents and purposes, the GTR is a loss leader, vanity project for Carlos Ghosn and Nissan. However, they're backed by a humongous company (and CEO with an equally humongous ego) to support it's flagging sales. McLaren isn't. If McLaren was ran on your frequently regurgitated Utopian ideals, they'd be out of business or taken over (if that doesn't happen soon enough to begin with) in the very near future, while clinging to it's most ardent fans self-created "cachet (though McLaren itself doesn't see themselves that way)".

Ironically, this isn't even really about Porsche. Who cares, really!? You gotta 'call em, the way you see em'. It's [actually] the gerrymandered logic, constantly changing, unrelenting opinion from many of McLaren's most ardent supporters that gives a double take.... I guess they must be doing something right over in Stuttgart, with widely disparate Ferrari, McLaren and GTR's most ardent, myopic supporters all loving to take shots at them? SMH/LOL

Please, no more responses/regurgitation. What's said is said.

 

The same could be said for McLaren who were overly ambitious with their initial production target of 500 P1's. The had to cut the production target and settle on 375 cars due to lack of interest. They clearly didn't learn their lesson with the F1.

The Porsche, on the other hand, is by far the best selling of the 3 having sold twice as many cars than McLaren could manage to before they threw in the towel.