Jarama Registry

Autoart: Your post makes me think that you have not had much seat time in either a Daytona or a Jarama. I own both, and enjoy both cars. However, the Jarama is no Daytona. The Jarama is a great touring car, with a very nice ride (better than the Daytona), but when it comes to performance, there is just no comparison. In my experience, ANY Daytona, even an old beat up example will easily touch 165 mph, and good cars will easily exceed 170 mph. A Jarama, not so much. While both cars are worthy examples of the era, there is just NO comparison between the two. They are in different leagues.

 

Olivier: Honestly, I think the performances are significantly different. The Lamborghini V-12 appears to have more torque than the comparable Ferrari 330 V-12. Both engines are very smooth. As for the Daytona, the extra .4 liter makes a big difference. Most Daytona engines we have dynoed will make the advertised 352 bhp, the Lambos tend to make less than the claimed 350-365 bhp. A Daytona is a "freight train". pulling extremely stongly in the over 100 mph range. You can run a Daytona to 140 mph in 4th, shift into 5th and the car will surprise you with the strength of the acceleration. None of this is in any way to the detriment of the Jarama. I love my Jarama. It is just a "different" experience than the Daytona.

 

Olivier: I think I might have misunderstood your question. I think we agree about the performances. As to why they are valued differently:

1. The performance of the two cars is significantly different.

2. The Daytona is a Ferrari from when Enzo ran the company. It has a "horse" on the badge.

3. The Daytona has the classic styling and "look".

4. The Daytona was actually raced in period, and didn't do too badly considering the weight penalty it carried.

5. There is no question that Ferrari's build quality was superior to Lamborghini in that era.

6. The Daytona was a more "complete" car, reflecting the more comprehensive development and testing that took place with the design.

Again, this does not make the Jarama a lesser vehicle, just a different one.

 

I think you are a Ferrari guy at heart. The differences between the two cars are not discernible to justify your claim "there is just NO comparison between the two".

I think you suffer from Ferrari badge syndrome like most other people.

My claims are based on personal experience but further justified by "independent" road test results recorded by Road & Track.

Pull out your R&T on both cars ( ignore the road test on the Bill Harrah Daytona because that was a modified version) - compare the results.

It is easy for you particularly if you are biased towards Ferrari to make whatever claims you like - but for the purpose of this exercise lets stick to the results of independent assessments.

Read the R & T result summaries on both cars before you comment again and then quote the comparative results to back up your claims!

I know R&T was of the opinion the Jarama was too heavy at 3600lbs curb weight - but guess what - the Daytona is slightly heavier at 3615lbs and has inferior brakes to boot!

Here are some comparative R&T results:

JARAMA v DAYTONA

1bs/hp - 11 -V- 11.1

speed on 100ft radius mph - 34.8 -V- 35

lateral accel , g .810-v- .817

0 TO 60 7.2s -V- 7.2s

0-100mph 17.7s - v- 15.4s ( do you think most owners would notice the difference?)

curb weight 3600lbs -v- 3615lbs

Stop from 80mph 280 feet - v- 308 feet ( Enough to KILL you Brother!)

You claim NO COMPARISON - HUH!!

Do you really own a JARAMA?

If so quote your chassis number if you want to play!

 

My Jarama is known to the knowledgeable members of the Lamborghini community It is an original 19,000 mile car that has never been apart. If you want to know the ACTUAL weights of the cars, my Jarama weighs 3,445 lbs, and our Daytona weighs 3,487 lbs. Both weights include spare tire and toolkits, and all fluids except gasoline. You are entitled to your views of both cars. I am done with the discussion, there is no benefit to this thread by continuing.

 

Olivier: I bought the car THROUGH Gary. He was not the actual owner. Bought it in December 2011. I am the sixth owner. A really great Jarama that was never messed with. The drivetrain has never been out of the car, and it runs super, shifts perfectly, no smoke, doesn't use oil, no leaks, etc. It was repainted in the original silver in 1993. The interior was replaced with matching black leather and grey cloth in the correct materials and patterns at the same time. The original carpet was red, but is now black. In spite of others opinions, I like BOTH the Jarama AND the Daytona. If you want to PM me with your email, I will be happy to send photos.

 

I am not here to piss anyone off!

I rely on my personal experience and I much prefer the drive of my Lamborghinis over my Ferrari.

The views expressed by DWR are typical and I know that most are afraid to voice their opinions, because they feel the Daytona has the lead in the market value wise and therefore it must be better.

Most people believe that if you pay more for something it must be better - and the same applies in the classic car circles.

The Ferrari may have the edge on top end performance but it lacks heavily in braking.

The Handling is similar, the weight is similar, the performance is similar - the braking is distinctively different in favour of the Jarama

I know that I am one of the few that is prepared to stand up and say what I genuinely believe - but I never say anything if I cant back it up - & I rely on the R&T tests in this case.

TheR&T road tests were independent assessments and the tester seemed to be biased towards Ferrari, but nonetheless the results are the facts.

The comparative R&T results below show the cars are similar in most respects including handling but the Jarama has the edge on braking which is more important for high performance driving than the slight edge in top end performance.

I don't mind if you say I prefer the Daytona over the Jarama - everyone is entitled toexpress their view but to say there is No Comparison between the two cars without statistical data to support the view is nonsense and in particular with reference to the R & T road tests.

We had this same discussion with the Ferrari guys in Australia and I could not believe their immaturity. They even attempted to produce statistical data that we later discovered had been compromised to support their view that the Daytona was better car.

I invite anyone to produce independent statistical data that compares the two that contradicts the R&T tests.

I am not here to criticise I am here because I want to explore more about the Jarama.

JARAMA v DAYTONA

1bs/hp - 11 -V- 11.1

speed on 100ft radius mph - 34.8 -V- 35

lateral accel , g .810-v- .817

0 TO 60 7.2s -V- 7.2s

0-100mph 17.7s - v- 15.4s ( do you think most owners would notice the difference?)

curb weight 3600lbs -v- 3615lbs

 

Olivier

I am rather surprised at your approach.

I have quoted "Controlled" statistical data from R & T.

IF you are not happy with Jarama brakes you will be less happy with Daytona brakes. PERIOD!

The fact you had an accident has nothing to do with my comparative view.

Even if the Jarama brakes are considered inadequate then it follows that the Daytona brakes are less adequate.

R& T recorded the Brake Swept area in sq and quoted 492 for the Jarama and 229 for the Daytona.

I have seen the Daytona's struggling in the brake department on track days compared with the the Lamborghinis.

Brakes have their limitations they cannot avoid an accident - there is a certain distance the car will travel before the car will come to a stop.

Perhaps you are to blame because you did not react in time & NOT the Jarama brakes

All of this has nothing to do with my original claim that the Jarama is as competent as the Daytona and has better brakes.

The "controlled" R&T road tests support my claim -they are the facts.

It seems your friend DWR relies on his perceptions rather than facts.

DWR's claim;

"Most Daytona engines we have dynoed will make the advertised 352 bhp, the Lambos tend to make less than the claimed 350-365 bhp.

The claim above is unsubstantiated and obviously "uncontrolled" or merely the writer's perception.

Alternatively, Daytonas have been prized for sometime and their values have attracted owners who can afford to maintain the cars in their proper state of Tune.

The Jaramas have had low values and therefore have deferred maintenance issues.

So this general comment by DWR serves to do nothing to support his claim" There is No Comparison" other than to demonstrate that he is not one who relies on controlled statistical data and is ready to jump to conclusions or is ready to rely on his "biased" perceptions.

IF you do not agree with the R& T road tests then simply produce data derived from "controlled" tests to support your claims.

I did not produce the tests and I don't particularly care if you produce contradictory data derived from a controlled environment.

I preferred my Lamborghinis to my Ferrari before I discovered the R&T tests and i will continue to do so regardless.

However, if no one can produce the contradictory data then that has to be great news for Lamborghini owners - after all this a JARAMA Forum.

Why am I being confronted with negativity about independent data that I brought to the attention of Jarama devotees which can only enhance the reputation of the Jarama?

It doesn't make sense to me! I

If you feel that your Ferrari is better than your Lamborghini sell the Lambo to someone who will cherish it instead

 

R & T in period also stated that the LP400 would do 192 mph!! They regularly just quoted what the factory told them (not just Lambo) so not to be taken at face value..

Olivier speaks from well documented experience, please lay out yours.

John

 

Yes, data from the old magazines was often made up, like some might do on a paper in college the night before. Modified cars were often used as well. A well known example was the 64 Pontiac GTO used to compare with the Ferrari GTO. The Pontiac had a special prepped 428 instead of the production 389.

Still, it is fun to bench race. And nice to see the Jarma get some love.

 

Does it really matter? Does any owner/admirer really care? Does a few mph, a few HP do much for the value? I say no when you talk about a 40+yr old car.

I do say numbers in strength (or lack of), styling, and overall experience, and name does.

Every old car has its + and -. Lambo and Ferrari are no different when it comes to the quirks.

Just IMO.

Never really thought of a comparison with a Daytona though.........pretty cool.

 

DEAR JOHN

IF YOU READ THE ROAD TEST R&T STATED THEY DID NOT QUESTION THE ABILITY OF THE COUNTACH TO ACHIEVE THE CALCULATED 192mph.

R&T DID NOT CLAIM THEY TESTED THE COUNTACH AT 192MPH.

DEAR JOHN I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU AS TO WHY YOU DOUBT THE CALCULATED 192 MPH TOP SPEED FOR THE COUNTACH?

I DONT KNOW IF ITS CORRECT OR NOT, BUT AS YOU SEEM TO KNOW - WOULD YOU BE KIND ENOUGH TO TELL EVERYONE WHAT THE ACTUAL TOP SPEED IS FOR THE COUNTACH AND DO YOU HAVE ANY "CONTROLLED" STATISTICAL DATA TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM AND IF SO WOULD YOU PLEASE PUBLISH THE SAID DATA FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHER MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM?.

OLIVIER MAY BE DOING A FINE JOB MAINTAINING A REGISTER OF OWNERS AND TRACKING THEIR HISTORY BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE HIM AN EXPERT ON EVERYTHING LAMBORGHINI - HE IS MERELY A RECORD KEEPER - A HISTORIAN OF THE MARQUE, - AND WHILST I DONT MEAN ANY DISRESPECT TO OLIVIER AS HE DOES A FINE JOB FOR US ALL - THAT DOES NOT QUALIFY HIM AS A TECHINCAL EXPERT

I HAVE BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH LAMBORGHINIS FOR ALMOST 30YEARS. I PURCHASED A FERRARI IN MY 20s & THE LAMBORGINI SOON AFTER . I CURRENTLY OWN 6 PRE 74 LAMBORGHINIS AND HAVE HAD SEVERAL OTHERS IN THE PAST.

YES I HAD A FERRARI BEFORE BUYING MY LAMBO and that should tell you something about me. Let me give you a hint just in case you don't follow me. I DONT SUFFER FROM BRAND INSECURITY unlike so many others.

I DONT PROFESS TO BE AN EXPERT ON THE MARQUE, BUT NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE JUST BECAUSE THEY LIKE, OWN OR HAVE SOME OTHER ASSOCIATION WITH EITHER A LAMBORGHINI OR A FERRARI

FOR YOUR INFORMATION DEAR JOHN - I HAVE ALREADY LAID OUT THE R& T RESULTS IN SUPPORT OF MY CLAIM - "THAT THE JARAMA IS AS COMPETENT AS THE Daytona" & I HAVE ASKED MEMEBERS ON THIS FORUM TO PROVIDE CONTRADICTORY EVIDENCE if they have it.

At this point in time all we have is the R&T results that support my claim.

If anyone has other results from a controlled test then please publish the information.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT I AM CORRECT IN MY CLAIM, BUT I BELIEVE I AM CORRECT AND THAT BELIEF IS REINFORCED BY THE R&T RESULTS.

I WILL NOT DISPLACE MY BELIEF BASED ON A FLIPPANT STATEMENT OR A CLAIM BASED ON HEARSAY.

IF YOU, OLIVIER, MR DWR OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER BELIEVE THAT I AM WRONG AND THAT R&T RESULTS ARE WRONG PUBLISH THE STATISTICAL DATA TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM. IS THAT REALLY SO HARD TO DO? oh my!

I HAVE AN OPEN MIND - I AM OPEN TO PERSUASION, BUT I WONT ACCEPT A CLAIM MADE BY ANYONE IN THE ABSENCE OF STATISTICAL DATA IN SUPPORT OF THAT CLAIM.

BRING IT ON BOYS!

 

.....anyway, some fun stuff from last night and this morning. Someone self tapped an aftermarket steering wheel on here and it was time to drill, tap, hammer, bite, and sweat.

Now, I have to find my steering wheel puller kit to remove the hub. I already have one with the correct wheel but I hope I can salvage it and add it the spare parts bin.

BTW, maybe time to upgrade my 6yr old phone
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Photographic evidence that the interior of 10150 was in fact tan. Senape perhaps.

I think Olivier you state quite sometime ago that the original combination was green/tan. Please refresh which green.
Now evidence of both are confirmed because both are somewhere on the car.
And the funny thing is, I think my Urraco's original color maybe the same green.
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Olivier: The email address that you gave me is "full" and it will not accept any emails when I tried to send you photos and historical data. Please check it and PM me the correct address.

 

The Comparison table you refer to compares the R&T road test results for the production Jarama with the modified Bill Harrah HOT ROD Daytona.

This is an unfair comparison!

If R&T engaged in any foul play it did so in favour of Ferrari.

It is quite possible that Bill Harrah Ferrari dealer and Casino owner may have influenced R&T to misrepresent the results - after all Casino owners are known for their under handed tactics.

IF you refer to the R&T road test of the modified Daytona you will note that the results used in the comparison table for the Jarama road test - relate to the non production Daytona.

The misrepresentation worked in favour of Ferrari and became the myth that turned into the legend.

There is evidence that R&T misrepresented the comparison test by implying the results of the 3 cars shown in the table related to production cars.

The evidence you have tabled serves to reinforce my position further and undermines the mythical claims made by Daytona owners who choose to maintain the misrepresentation when they well know that the only Daytona capable of achieving a top speed of 170mph was not a production model but rather a modified "Hot Rod" version of the Daytona.

 

Olivier the suggestion that R&T was not Kosher applies equally to the Daytona as it does to the Jarama, but your implication and that of your colleagues seem to suggest that only the Jarama results are wrong!

I think I have made my point loud and clear and its time for all us to join in, sing & rejoice......"The Jarama - Lamborghini's Daytona!"

 

Everybody: I had said I was done with this discussion, but now I have to set some of the facts straight:

1. Reputable Ferrari historians believe the Road & Track October 1970 road test Daytona was chassis #13361, the prototype US Spec car.

2. The Harrah Daytona "Hot Rod" was chassis #14169. This car was completed by Ferrari on 10 March 1971. Therefore it CANNOT be the October 1970 road test car.

3. 13361 has NEVER been claimed to have ANY performance enhancing modifications.

4. The 405 BHP mentioned in the Road & Track October 1970 road test is the result of the magazines engineering department converting the 352 DIN bhp to SAE Gross bhp. At this point in time, Road & Track, like most American publications and manufacturers used the SAE Gross method of calculating horsepower.

5. Paul Frere, the respected Belgian journalist clocked a Daytona (with him driving) at 176 mph for a test for a European magazine in the day.

Now we need to get back to enjoying Jaramas.