The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

That is an interesting statement....

On the one hand, it says they would have done the modifications differently, than currently exist on the car.

OTOH, it also confirms that this is a P3 chassis in the first place, which blows the "Piper built it from P4 blueprints" right out of the water...

I think we have hiked the long way 'round the woods, to end up close to where it all began.

It also points to miurasv having a mad dog level of obsession, in attacking Jim's credibility.
Odd, that....

 

by MiuraSV's own standard, this letter is nothing but hearsay. Post a pdf of the actual letter. Also, we are looking at alleged answers to questions we have not seen? Post a pdf of the actual letter to Forghieri in its entirety; what were the exact questions? How leading/prejudicial were they, etc.?

 

What's the fine line of another user posting for a banned user?

 

understood

 

In my opinion the entire posts should be deleted, anyone can type up a supposed letter.

I mean just the other day a man name Enzo wrote to me.

 

Somehow I doubt you would have made the same post if Forgheri had clearly stated that he did recognize the genuine 0846 as it was in those pics....

 

Even more dubious is the "deathbed confession" of Tom Meade, but that source is cited as fact on the Wikipedia page for Ferrari P cars. In fact, many of the questionable bits of information are cited as facts. The source of the citations are the 0846 file that Jim wrote.

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

"Recently, many components of the original P3/4 0846 including it's original P 3/4 chassis have resurfaced in the possession of exotic car collector and enthusiast James Glickenhaus, a former movie director and stock exchange magnate. Although both he and David Piper (from whom he acquired the car) thought it one of three replica P4 chassis constructed with the blessing of Enzo Ferrari in the mid 70ies from Factory P4 Chassis Blueprints given to David Piper by Enzo Ferrari, a recent "Death Bed Statement" of Tom Meade's confirms that Tom Meade bought, Directly From Enzo Ferrari, in the early 70ies, Ferrari P 3/4 0846's original fire damaged chassis which had been put in the Ferrari Factory Scrap Yard after 0846's accident at Le Mans in 1967 and later sold 0846's original P 3/4 chassis to the original chassis maker who repaired and sold it..."

Later in the article:

"Nearly all of the tube frame chassis and other components from the original wrecked P3/4 0846 are part the car owned by James Glickenhaus today.[10**] This discovery has stirred debate..."

**footnote #10 is the citation for the 0846 .PDF file written by Jim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_P

 

Could also be a great title of something yet to be written.Forghieri had a chance with his book but devotes little. There is however someone who was there almost at the creation and spent the next 40+ years doing just about everything possible with these cars.Until this person is persuaded to open up in detail on the subject, this and other threads like it will remain mired in innuendo and go no further towards anything resembling reality. It will take a very special some one to gain real entry to the world of David Piper. It may take someone with the skills of an Alf Francis to do this,I doubt anyone on this side of the pond can do this. To much bad mouthing. Time may be running out so there need to be an effort soon to get this underway. Thanks in part to F Chat USA this may never happen so we may have to rely on the Brits. Any suggestions could be posted on F Chat U K. tongascrew

 

Amen ... and the wording is very close to what Steve wrote earlier ... sorry at this stage I don't believe it is real.

The concept of talking to Mauro is a good idea though.
Pete
ps: Again why is this supposed letter allowed to be posted without any proof that it is real?

 

If I had bought a Piper and later thought some of its chassis was from an original Ferrari, the first two people I would have contacted to see if my thoughts had any validity would have been David Piper, asking who supplied him with the chassis, and then the man from Ferrari who oversaw the build of the original car, asking his thoughts on my theory and associated evidence.

Both easy enough to contact it seems, both happy to reply it seems, neither ever were?

Steve has in fact been in contact with both, I know that for certain, as he told me a while ago, at the time Mauro was on holiday but promised to reply once he was back home, and each of them has told Steve this Piper is not 0846, so if anyone disputes Steves claims then just give both gents a call and let us know what they say to you instead.

Maybe the man from the Scooby Doo cartoons will do the honours and finally provide some actual facts to support his views, then again he still probably expects other people to do that for him.

Mauro says it appears to be a P3 spec chassis converted to accept a P4 engine, which confirms the previous auction description when Piper first put it up for sale, and listed its origins, and Mauro also states the work was not the method the factory would have carried out the conversion, which again confirms "AN Other" did the work. In the auction description Mr "AN Other" is identified, and a few pages back I provided contact details for this person, so if anyone disputes the auction description then they are yet another person to call.

Over to the "yes it is 0846" people to make contact with all 3 gents identified, there is little point those who do not believe it to be 0846 doing all the hard work as they would still be called out, as is currently the case, plus they no longer have a right of reply on fchat anyway.

This must be the only example in history where a replica's past is questioned as actually being the replica it was correctly sold as, and that its an original instead?

For the record I do believe Jim honestly thinks the car is 0846 and if he came back onto the thread and said he had spoken to both Piper and Forghieri and they said it does in fact appear to be 0846 then Jims word would be good enough, just as Steves currently is.

 

Paul500,

Your comments saying Piper was never contacted is not true. He was and has always said that the chassis is a P4 chassis made as a batch of 3. He is obviously wrong.

Anyway I've decided to email Mauro ... so lets see what happens there.
Pete

 

PSK where does Piper say that in relation to the car sold to Jim? his auction description does not make that claim for the car

Good for you about the email, I am pretty certain you will have the same reply as Steve.

 

"Amon was hit by a flying wheel" ?????

 

In Jim's PDF. Even describes the car as a P4 in the bill or sale.

Anyway. Lets see if Mauro has the time to answer my email. If he does I will post a picture of his response not just text to prove it is legit.
Pete

 

We trust you, Pete! At least I certainly do.

 

I would have said exactly the same thing, no matter which way the argument had gone, the fact we have people posting here on behalf of banned people is somewhat odd to say the least.

For me the argument here is not so much is it or isn't it but the way in which this so called "research" has been done and the motive for it.

I think most of us here are open to hear differing points of view and when presented with facts one can make a decision BUT when the person shouting the loudest has a profile looking for employment selling Vintage Ferrari's then one has to ask is this while crusade an attempt to impress would be employers.

 

Thanks, I will have another read, just from memory though my understanding was the invoice was worded as per Jims request in order to get the car into the US? and it was actually a P4 spec Piper at the time of purchase.

I also would trust any reply you post up from MF, it will be good to have a second confirmation of his thoughts.

As to Steves motives, those should not really come into play, facts are facts at the end of the day, whoever presents them.

 

Spite mixed with big balls isn't necessarily an asset.

 

Not the least bit constructive...in fact, your posts continue to be destructive.

 

Facts are facts.

FWIW I think Steve was a knowledegable guy and in many ways enjoyed him. As I said, even after all the vitriol, I would still gladly go and have a beer with him and still would. There were many things he did that I had a lot of respect for. As there were many things I did not. As there are probably many things about me that bug others just the same.

In the end what I stated is what I feel made the good outweigh the bad.