The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Not elegantly stated but on target.

Steve entered the discussion with the demeanor of someone with a chip on his shoulder. Its tough to have an honest open discussion with someone like that.
Its a shame. The man has a lot to offer.

 

OK. So see if you can answer these:

1. Do you accept that the IAC/PFA people are recognized as knowledgeable?

2. Do you know why the IAC/PFA does not recognize this car as 0846?

3. What is the caveat on the story that 0846 has never been refused entry for Pebble Beach?

4. Do you know who Jess Pourret is?

5. If you answered yes to #4 why are you intent to dispute his conclusion on 0846?

6. What is your basis to be so assured that the posted response from Mauro is fiction?

 

If only...

Steve is not here anymore...let it go. Let's stick to facts (and/or lack thereof) as it relates to the thread's subject.

Please.

 

With respect I don't so much as trust anything that comes from someone who registered here to seemingly try and find employment.

 

What if someone else of "standing" had seen the actual message? No me but I have been told by someone who A) has such standing and B) saw the communication that it is real and that is what it says.

 

Jeff Kennedy.

I promise to answer your questions as soon as I can.

I have written the jist of my response to four of them. Need to work on the other two. As much as I love debating the discovery of this I am watching my little girl today and feel bad neglecting her typing on a keyboard as she jumps on me. I love Ferrari's but I love her more. I am taking her out in a bit but will get these answers to you hopefully by early evening.

The jist of it is I make my own conclusions and don't live and die by others. Experts throughout history have been wrong and I am not a sheep that bows to the gods. Mostly when all the facts aren't out there yet and the experts don't have proof of how what sits in front of us came to be.

If it is 0003 or 0846, there is not yet enough concrete physical proof to be sure either way so I don't know how any of them are.

I agree. I was just commenting on what others brought up. If you are going to give me a hard time, I can only ask you extend them the same treatment.

My main interest, as stated above, is finding out how this frame came to exist, whether it is 0003 or 0846.

I think knowledge of the history of either scenario is important.

 

Vincent,

Fair enough.

Jeff

 

All,
See attached.

Pete
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Apparently, Forghieri remains confused about wheelbase *and/or* database. In 2005, he said P3 and P4 both equal 2400. Fact is, P3 is 2412. Conversion from P3 to P3/4 gave wheelbase of 2400, same as P4. A 412P will also connect dots to P3, albeit in a different manner than P4.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/136439091-post18.html

That "flying wheel" would be news to Chris Amon and everyone else. It was a puncture.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/19289-tale-0846-lemans.html

Again - Apparently, Forghieri remains confused about wheelbase *and/or* database. In 2005, he said P3 and P4 both equal 2400. Fact is, P3 is 2412. Conversion from P3 to P3/4 gave wheelbase of 2400, same as P4. A 412P will also connect dots to P3, albeit in a different manner than P4.
_____

As "consideration" goes by other various parties of "repute" and so forth go - Cavallino Magazine and Cavallino Events have quite mistakenly "excluded" other Prototype Ferraris owned by James Glickenhaus.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-vintage-driving-machines/280241-cavallino-truth-verses-personal-agenda.html
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/florida-sponsored-ferrari-tampa-bay/137888-ferraris-cavallino-classic-john-barnes.html

 

Wax, how was that wheelbase changed? It was either: a) insignificant and simply a result of different bolt on components (or bolted on in a different configuration)... or, b) would require a pretty big changes to significant portions of the rear chassis...

"A" is far more plausible than "B."

Again, moving the engine will not change the wheelbase... only moving the wheels will change the wheelbase.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

Whatever the reality is concerning the car in question, I just hope Jim is enjoying the car and continues to do so for many years to come!

As for all the events that are organized by people who are so far up their own arses that they ban Jim's cars from being there, I suspect their loss is far greater than Jims!

 

Engine triangulation shifted wheelbase. One must realize that repair was done to the damaged side using different tubes than original and over time, welds from welders with a different style of welding. On that damaged side, as measured by micrometer, chassis tubes are different than unrepaired side.

Aside from Forghieri having mistaken recollections on wheelbase, let alone cause of accident, mind you - This is the problem I have with the e-mail response to someone who has been disingenuous in parsing and phrasing loaded questions and much, much more;

What photos did Forghieri see? The damaged side? Then of course it would look quite different [non-factory] than original, because in whole and/or part, it is quite different than original.

 

If you study the four "naked" rear sections that were posted previously, you'll see four cars with all four wheels planted firmly on the ground. No matter how the engine is installed, the wheels will not move...

I'm not understanding engine triangulation in the context of the four separate chassis photos. The pieces and parts that are responsible for locating the wheels are ALL on the chassis...the engine/ gearbox are only connected to those wheels via half-shafts with U-joints on either end.

 

The only photos MF could have been given are the ones from Jims pdf showing how the P4 engine was remounted in the P3 spec frame, the very same ones we have all seen and then questioned the actual quality of the modifications.

MF clearly confirms its not how Ferrari would have carried out the conversion. Those mods are nothing to do with a 12mm reduction in wheelbase, they are to do with mounting a different engine and gearbox combination into a frame not designed to take them.

I said quite a few pages back it would have been far easier to chop out the P3 engine mountings from the chassis and install new sections to accommodate a p4 engine, than leave the frame with the option of being able to mount both types of engine.

The only reason you would leave the P3 set up would be if you owned both engines and wanted to have the option to swap around in the future, exactly the scenario David Paper was in back then.

Given MF was directly involved in the detail work of many Ferraris at that time he would no doubt instantly spot non Ferrari style work on a chassis.

His hazy recollection of certain other events from the 60s would not diminish his knowledge of how Ferrari engineering looked like from the period.

 

Forghieri might recognize original. Not repaired side. If he didn't even see original side, then . . . no.

I should mention some specificity; The P4 Engine is pushed forward 12 mm with an angled mount on the left side and a more forward bushing on the right side.

This is again due to differences in triangulation on original tubing versus replacement tubing and welding on damaged side of chassis.

Supposing I were one to believe 0846 chassis was completely destroyed; at the very least, I would be curious as to how the original, unique P3/4 magnesium uprights of 0846 came to be on this vehicle at the time of sale. "Oh, let's save those bits, Luigi." "You're right, Mario, you never know, there might be another P3/4."

As to reconciling wheelbase change, you're halfway there . . .

 

I propose that you haven't even started to explain the wheelbase change. Please, actually look at the chassis pictures which clearly show how the rear wheels are attached to the frame...

The engine/ gearbox have an "elastic" connection to pieces that are rigidly attached to the frame. Moving the engine... changing the engine... mounting the engine sideways or upside-down...will not change the wheelbase.

 

Wax,

You seem to miss the point that the IAC/PFA does not accept 0846. As long as they are the judging group and their standards are used then 846 cannot be accepted at Cavallino, Pebble, the FCA International Meet or any other event they control the judging on. Pissing and moaning about John Barnes and Cavallino Classic does not change this fact.

Jeff

 

Wax, its been stated by Ferrari that the original hulk of 0846 was stripped of any usable parts by them and these were put on the shelf for future projects, and the chassis was scrapped.

David Piper bought up a load of redundant parts from Ferrari a few years later as well as parts from other people who have purchased job lots of parts from Ferrari. He then built up a variety of cars from these components, so there is your answer as to why the hubs are on that chassis, where else do you think Piper got the bits from to build his various P4 projects? there were only a limited supply of p3 and p4 parts ever out there.

 

Judging Standards: IACPFA
http://www.ferrariclubofamerica.org/resources/DocuWorks/file_display.cfm?id=68
10. The key purpose of the concours is to promote the preservation of the Ferrari in its
original state. Therefore, the primary focus of the judging will be on originality,
authenticity and condition with minor emphasis on cosmetics. Deductions will be made
for over-restoration; extravagance detracts from originality. Applied patina is
discouraged. Spyder conversions and unauthorized rebodies are ineligible for judging.
Over-cleanliness is unnecessary; some slight road dust and wear is to be expected.
Ferraris are meant to be driven.

No can do . . .

 

Like Nelson Piquet.

 

Please clarify. Are you saying you agree that 0846 does not meet the standards of the IAC/PFA?

Jeff

 

FCA Sub [Copyright 2014 © Ferrari Club of America - Missouri Chapter] republished this in '12
http://www.fca-mo.org/fca-mo/newsletters/Newsletter_Winter2012.pdf

Page 113 is singular place where "Drogo" was mentioned on .pdf. I can't help but think that is what Forghieri unwittingly alluded to when he apparently answered a misleading query from miurasv about "Drogo", who indeed had nothing to do with the vehicle in question. Aside from that, there's lots more to read in that paragraph.

In Art, there is a term called Trompe-l'œil - Deceive the eye. Same goes for BS, which is what I'm afraid Forghieri was fed.

If you scroll further down pdf, you'll see some luminaries who've had hands-on experience with the vehicle in question both in racing and restored state and a lovely handwritten comment to share about past, present, and hopefully, future.

Hopefully, this "out of here" post helps some to grasp the unique P3, P3/4, P4 configurations which ultimately decreased wheelbase. A long time ago, it took me a while to wrap my head around it, too.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/143032748-post7497.html

 

IMHO - Not by the [speaking as an] Anal-Retentive [authored by same types] terminology used within that [10] standard, where the Key, repeated word is Originality.

Authenticity is the subject of The Great Debate. Many an actual hands-on then-and-now look-touch-feel-confirm old-timer who were there and back believe it be Authentic.

I believe it to be Authentic and Mostly Original with remanufactured portions over the years, some others also do, some don't, and some believe it be utterly and completely destroyed, even at the scene of the accident.

Edit:

Went off to Dremel some pendants-in-process while remaining light was still favorable - Folks - there ain't nuttin' like a sanding band unraveling at 5K RPM - enough for flexible shaft to *whoop* into water PDQ - WHOO!

Thanks for posting the *meh-est* of the WYSIWYG pix.

 

I agree with this post. poor form from the mod. I am sorry to hear steve was banned...a knowledgeable vintage sports car guy make no mistake.